Existence: What is the point?

The Bible clearly states that God hates Esau.

Malachi 1:3 (NKJV) =

"But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”​

"

Romans 9:13 (CEB) =

"As it is written, ​

I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau."

​

The only thing Esau did was to marry women outside of his family. He even forgave his lying thieving brother Jacob. Esau was a paragon of virtue. He should have killed Jacob and their mother, the conniving bigot Rebekah.

 

I think we would like to think so, but how is this a logical conclusion? I have used this 'capability' as a rebuttal to those who claim there is no reason, god, or afterlife. IF we are just evolved animals, WHY & HOW did this capability evolve? It has no function in our survival. Dolphins & chimps do not seem bothered with angst over abstract ideas like this. Yet this 'question' seems to be recorded in the earliest annals of human history. The most primitive ancient tribes seem to have metaphysical explanations for their existence.

I disagree that 'reasoning, meditation, & similar' will help us solve this problem. We have reasoned ourselves until we're blue in the face, & still have no consensus. Someone comes up with a model, which gains popularity & grows, but it seems regional to a culture. Some of these models extend outside a culture, & assimilate into others. But how can we know that any or all of these ideas are not just wishful thinking, or desperate attempts to explain the unknown?

But the point you make in the bold above is a significant one, imo. It is not easy to dismiss, & should give us pause before declaring omnipotent assertions about something we cannot fully know.

 

I completely agree with your second statement, but the first needs more definition. Babies will die without human affection, but is that not an instinctual thing? Even a non relative can adopt a baby, & commit to it's care, feeding, nurturing, etc. Humans have done that for millennia, in varying philosophical circumstances. Is that 'love' the same motivation for a suicide bomber? Do we need better definitions for something as broad as the english word for 'love'?

 

Yes. The Greeks did a much better job defining love giving us I believe 5 different uses.

 

Even when we can't find the answer yet, such does not mean that we won't reach it.

What was unknon some centuries ago for professional scientitsts, today is taught in elementary and high schools. We still growing, we still trying, we still making lots of mistakes, but we still thinking, meditating, looking for answers.

Perhaps we will never find the answer, maybe we will. This is a daily challenge, and many quit while others continue.

 

Good conclusion. Very hopeful & optimistic. Years of cynicism sometimes dulls the enthusiasm for that quest.

 

The fact that mole rats can’t see you is not due to you hiding yourself from them.

The programmer is invisible to the program.

Our sensory perceptions are limited by the narrow range of relatively low frequencies of vibrations in matter at the density of our existence. Sages, mystics & clairvoyants say that the rest of us can’t perceive other less dense realms where the vibrations are much faster.

Physical/material life as we experience it is far from ideal, but we instinctively suspect that a more ideal form of existence is possible. Hence the concept of heaven or God, but the inclusion of intermediate levels is perhaps more realistic. According to the gifted wise men, such levels exist.

Our reality cannot very well be used to demonstrate proof of what exists in another reality.

In a comparison of various religious/philosophical disciplines, some are distinctly more consistent and effective than others, and profound tenets are common to several of them.

Theosophy is a distillation of the key underlying messages found in the world’s major religions. It bridges the gulf between mankind and God.

You cannot see the collective purpose unless you look at the big picture: the grand universe, and probably more universes beyond. The creative instinct that is in everyone is a ticket, a chance for a role in the future development of the cosmos, a chance to evolve beyond earthly human puniness to fill those roles. Unless, of course, we are here just by accident and spontaneous creation, which is unlikely. Consider the odds or improbability (specificity) for the arrangement of hemoglobin: roughly 10[SUP]650[/SUP]. The specificity of DNA in the T4 phage is about 10[SUP]78,000[/SUP]. The universe is only about 10[SUP]18[/SUP] seconds old.

Biological evolution does not explain it, but interdimensional evolutionary recycling does.

Consider this: No amount of worldly experience, material possession, fame, or high rank can eliminate that inner nag, so try the following.

You may have heard about so-called past life regression, where people are hypnotized and asked to describe past life experiences. Supposedly they can also describe experiences in between incarnations. Taking a big step further, they were asked to describe their earliest memory of their existence. The result:

I am at the edge of the universe. I can see all of creation spread out before me. It is so enormous, complex, and wondrous, making me feel so tiny and insignificant. However, I know that I am a part of it, and it is a part of me. I feel lonely, even though I am with multitudes like myself. I am being told to go out and explore and experience all that is out there.

At the risk of boring those who have seen it issued previously, I repeat this here. There is a small piece of God in each of us; it has been there ever since the Unlimited Spirit separated us from Itself and gave us awareness of our individual existence. That inner nagging is just separation anxiety, the result of separation from the Source.

 

Man cannot stand a meaninless life. ~Carl Jung

Man is a useless passion. It is meaningless that we live and it is meaningless that we die. Jean-Paul Sartre

One can forget the meaninglessness of his own existence by occupying himself with scientific experiments of dubious import. Countless scientists and scholars spend their lives in the search of truths that are irrelevant to them. John Silber

The grand thing about the human mind is that it can turn its own tables and see meaninglessness as ultimate meaning. John Cage

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. ~Mark Twain

 

Since i was getting some existentialism in another thread, i thought it appropriate to fire up this old zombie thread.. at least existential angst is not dated!

 

The Big Questions... timeless, multicultural, universal.

In another thread, in another age, in a different life, i posted these as a summary of the Big Questions of life:

Origins
Meaning
Morality
Destiny

These are The Big Ones. How, Why, What, & When. They are questions of matter, purpose, law, & time.

HOW did i (and everybody else) get here? Origins
WHY are we here? Is there a purpose to our existence? Meaning
WHAT do we do? Are there rules for our existence? Morality
WHEN we die, what happens? Is there a soul? Destiny

These are the basic questions, that we don't really know, even though there are strongly held beliefs in people. But the dogmatism or certainty of conviction is not proof of any answer for these questions.

All of these questions connect, and clump together in the overriding question:

Is there a God?

Everyone has to do their own believing and their own dying..

IF.. there is a God, there might be definitive answers for these questions.

IF... there is no God, then life is a cosmic accident with no possible meaning, and the Big Questions are irrelevant.

 

The answer is very simple. There is no meaning to existance. It just is until it isn't.

 

Intelligent beings such as humans make choices based on necessity or motive. The latter, at the very least, may be attributed to serendipity, boredom, or curiosity.

Less intelligent beings such as dogs and cats have far less reasoning power. I.E. only 1 out of 50 or 100 cats will reach its paw into a narrow can to get food remnants that are just beyond the reach of its snout. Some will repeatedly get their heads stuck in the can in vain efforts to get the last available lick. Yet cats will more often resort to poking a paw through the fencing of a wire cage to get food that is within leg reach.

Innate superior abilities can be chalked up to qualitative and quantitative degrees of brain development. No further analysis beyond physical reality seems necessary, except that the vector of progressive consciousness remains an open issue.

Various sophisticated capabilities can also be implemented via design and programming. If the origin of our existence involves such processes, then source intelligence is implied, hence associated reasoning, intent, motive, purpose, and meaning.

Material existence has a nonmaterial origin below the level of objective physical reality. The “invention” of DNA may have involved intelligent intervention in otherwise less sophisticated and less well-organized organic combinations. Contrary to that, some people prefer to think that whatever caused the big bang to initiate is a moot issue and that material existence was entirely capable of building itself up from the start of the big bang by virtue of pathfinder hit or miss possibilities. Apparently, that’s where people such as you and I part company.

 

Animals have been shown to use tools. Proves nothing about intelligent design. And the topic is the Meaning of Existsnce.

 

Why exist? To do things and accomplish things you enjoy. Thats about it.

 

Pretty simple really. There is a giant tug of war between good and evil in the Cosmo's. Every decision you make puts you on one side or the other of the rope pull and this battle will go on until one side decidedly wins and reigns supreme. Your purpose is to pick a side and hopefully it's the side of good.

 

Since material existence has a nonmaterial origin, your expectation or standard of logic for intelligent design to be proven via physical reality is unrealistic. The association is a subtle implication and involves recognition of patterns cited. Beyond local physical reality there is a big picture that should be taken into account. Assessment that yields meaning requires wide scope.

 

The win/lose cosmos works like a voting machine that might unfairly favor Hillary Clinton. That's not a pleasant thought.

 

This reply was from another thread, but it seems more topical here.

A few questions:
1. Why would a person who believes in jungle law engage in 'charitable work?'
2. Why demean others for believing in 'meaning!'?
3. How can there be any purpose or meaning, in a purely material universe?
4. Why would there be any satisfaction in selfless living over selfish living?

 

Maybe. Lots of different opinions about this subject.. how do you know yours is right?

Maybe. Lots of different opinions about this subject.. how do you know yours is right?

Maybe. Lots of different opinions about this subject.. how do you know yours is right?

..sorry.. same skeptical reply for all of these thoughtful musings about the meaning of life.

But that is the dilemma we find ourselves in. Something is True, regarding the nature of the universe, God, and Destiny. But determining what that is, has befuddled mankind since the first philosopher scratched his head and wondered, 'Why?'

The grand thing about the human mind is that it can turn its own tables and see meaninglessness as ultimate meaning. John Cage

It ultimately boils down to the Central Question:

Is there a God?

If so, the questions of meaning, origins, destiny, & morality might have some significance to our lives. If not, none of it matters, and it is mental masturbation.

 

I can only tell you this one piece of a giant jigsaw puzzle has been revealed to me like lifting a dark veil from my eyes and it actually answers some other questions such as why does God let horrible things happen? It's not his call it's ours and I say "his" for lack of a better word. I don't think there is a word in our vocabulary to describe what god is and the word God itself is for lack of a better word.
As far as mental masturbation goes that ends when you start accepting instead of questioning. At that point things come into focus and basic truths are revealed. "Be still and listen"

 

1. Because they have a concern for their fellow human.
2. Because that's what Christian do.
3. There is a meaning in life. Death is a natural function. Atheists don't have to look for rewards.See 1.
4. That simply shows your lack of humanity.

A Pastor stood in the pulpit and asked for people to give to help a family in need. People donated various amounts. An elderly lady gave her gift to the pastor and he was surprised. He knew the old lady could not really afford to give the amount, and it would cost her some necessities. When he mentioned it to her he was taken aback by her reply. 'Pastor, would you deny me the pleasure of giving?'

True story

 

Quote It ultimately boils down to the Central Question:

Is there a God?

If so, the questions of meaning, origins, destiny, & morality might have some significance to our lives. If not, none of it matters, and it is mental masturbation.Quote

And if there isn't you've spent your life in meaningless ways.

 

1. Why? If life is just a meaningless cosmic accident, and it makes no difference to the universe whether we live or die, why have a 'concern'? Why not just live for yourself and for the day?
2. Atheists are constantly exposing the meaninglessness of life, but disparage theists who believe in Something more than themselves. Why the insecurity, if nothing matters?
3. Death is a function of life. It is not 'meaning!', in any philosophical definition. To say death is the meaning of life is the same as saying there is no meaning. Why not embrace what you believe, instead of engaging in absurd word redefinitions?
4. As you show your dependency on ad hom and fallacies, avoiding the question.

 

Life does not have to have a philosophical meaning to it. We are all humans and as such we have a responsibility for our fellows. Something you don't seem to understand. I get pleasure out of helping others - that's my reward. You're too far away from the real world.

Most of my 'fallacies' are the real facts.

 

I believe it is possible to know some of these mysteries.. at least to know the Answers exist, even if we are a bit fuzzy on them.

I have observed a phenomenon in the universe of inquiry and discovery.. seeking and finding..

It requires diligence, sincerity, honesty, and patience. It is not for those looking for affirmation, or entertainment, or esteem. The quest for Truth is humbling, if we seek it sincerely.

It is also my belief that a true search for Enlightenment originates from the Divine. I do not know why or how, but it seems to be universal in humanity.

Proverbs 1:20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud,
she raises her voice in the public square;
21on top of the wall she cries out,
at the city gate she makes her speech:

22“How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?

23Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings..