First century church may have numbered 400,000... did the majority convert to Islam?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DennisTate, Jan 17, 2015.

?

Palestinian people = grandchildren of second century church, does this idea move you?

  1. Yes, I do find this idea profoundly moving.

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No... I try to be completely unbiased about such issues.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  3. This is interesting and I will research this further.

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. I think this could positively alter the Middle East conflict.

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You did the same thing last time ... I posted what James said "you are misinterpreting" without posting one thing that was misinterpreted. Your naked claims were not worth much back then and they certainly not worth anything now.

    Then you blubber on about Romans when I have not talked about Romans.

    I posted James 2 in its entirety. Unfortunately you refuse to discuss its contents - as in by discussing the actual things that James says - rather than running around crying "NO NO NO" your interpretation is wrong and then trying to change the topic to Romans.

    Why are you so afraid to discuss what is said in James 2 ?
     
  2. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Another poster brought up Romans in the same context (are works required for salvation). All of Romans addresses salvation through faith alone. The fact you are not willing to actually read what is relevant to this subject - James, Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians, Acts, Peter - is typical and your standard mode.

    Posting James is not the same as actually reading it.

    I have no problem debating these issues, in fact I enjoy it. But you have done this exact same thing at least 3 times over the past year or two. I conscientiously addressed your comments in previous OPs. At this point its a waste of time unless I see you have gained an open mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You continue to try and divert from James by talking about Pauline scripture.

    What is more nonsensical is that I posted all of James 2, went through it sentence by sentence, and you sit there and claim "you have not read it".

    Clearly it is you that does not want to read James 2 and address its contents. Previously all you have done is provide a link to some apologist website. I went through those as well and showed that they were abject nonsense.

    How about you stop dodging, weaving and making false claims and address the content of James 2.
     
  4. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Chapter (61) sūrat l-ṣaf (The Row)
    [​IMG]

    Sahih International: And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."


    Answer

    When was Mohammad born?

    570 AD ( It was a Monday in April). Died in 632 AD. He said his last speech to his people saying that the message of Islam (submission to God ) is now completed, and then got in his house. His wife Aisha took his head in her arms and then he just died in peace. Peace be upon him. Thanks for asking. Peace.

    Voted best answer
    See 4 more on Yahoo Answers


    In What Year was Christ Actually Born?


    Chapter (3): 59 sūrat āl ʿim'rān (The Family of Imrān)

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    Sahih International: Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

    Pickthall: Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.


    What is 'birth'?

    John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."

    Chapter (3) sūrat āl ʿim'rān (The Family of Imrān)

    [​IMG]

    Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].


    Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

    3:48 -
    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

    And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

    And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.


    And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

    Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

    But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].


    Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."


    3:55 [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

    --------------------


    However, flesh has a difficult time obeying other flesh and so there is rebellion.

    Obedience unto other flesh is a part of 'humility', or being humble.


    A master is kind and merciful to his servant. But what does one do if they do not want to be as indentured, or being as in 'submission'?

    But... Jesus has ascended... He is in Heaven, seated at the Right Hand of The Father....

    Matthew 24:26
    "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

    Matthew 24:4-5

    "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    False Christs

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

    -------------

    Mental Illness...


    EVEN IF it is nothing more than a 'prank', it's a prank coming out from disconcern towards others which is a form of socio-psycho-illness, narcissistic personality, borderline personality, disassociative identity disorder, and others.

    It could be associated with emotional issues or it could be more on a 'delusional' level.

    But basically, a need for sincere Love and Care.


    These persons, with these forms of illnesses, could very well have the higher moral and relational concepts within their hearts and it is because the majority of the world is not yet 'there', that they may have 'developed' these 'illnesses'.

    -------------

    But why would it be a mental illness if claiming to be Christ is only being done as a joke/prank?

    Because of their own acceptance of/to worship and adoration, to self, as to Christ Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow!

    This is an awesome post Delade...... I have a good friend that I have got to forward this on to to get his reaction.

    What do you think of near death experiencer Kevin William's theory that
    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) may have had a near death experience,
    or an out of the body experience?


    https://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html
    .......

    https://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html#a03
     
  6. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Are those accounts in line with what The Qur'an says or are they additions to islamic faith as a whole? Are the hadiths accounts of Mohammad before or during his prophet-hood to God?

    If the first book of hadiths was put onto paper over 100 years AFTER Mohammad's death, then were they others' personally kept diary notes of Mohammad? The hadiths were orally kept until written.

    Remember, Mohammad was unable to read or write. Perhaps he didn't attend school? Poor family or wealthy family? If poor, then probably more of a trouble maker.

    God raises a person out of the dung pile and sets him among His Princes.

    1 Samuel 2:8

    "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them."

    The LORD can set up whomsoever HE desires.


    Here is a question. Is it good or bad to be a ruler or king?

    If good, then one should accept if offered. If bad, one should decline if offered. What does The Qur'an and The Holy Bible say about being king or ruler?

    Second thing...

    Would God deestablish that which has been established to set up new kings or rulers or would HE stay within the established?

    Would HE take away parent responsibilities and given them to the children or would HE leave the responsibilities as they are?

    (For childs. Not man)

    An on the same note, what is the difference between son of man versus man? God called Ezekiel, son of man, also.

    Ezekiel 6:2

    "Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,"

    Mark 14:21
    "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

    1 Corinthians 15:47
    "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

    1 Kings 11:28
    "And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph."


    Why is this important or how is this relevant in anyway in today's time?

    Suppose there come into the assembly a male. Is he a son of man or is he man? Are there differences between the sons of man and men? If there are, are they holding different responsibilities in their lives. And if so, should they be interacted with the same as one another?

    If this is true with God, how is this truth applied to male Muslims?

    Would the Prophet Mohammad be a son of man or man?

    And most importantly..

    When in Church/House of worship/prayer, Whom is lifted up? Self, others, establishments, thoughts, attitudes, acts/works?

    John 12:32
    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  7. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Palestinians... Children/Grandchildren of Ham, the son of Noah.

    Israelis... Children/Grandchildren of Shem, the son of Noah.

    Same father, different mother.

    The wife of Abram/Abraham, Sarai/Sara.
    The wife of Abraham, Keturah.
    The mother of Ishmael - Hagar
    The mother of Isaac - Sara
    The mother of ..... - Keturah

    https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

    https://goo.gl/images/Jgoxi6
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  8. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    3:50
    "And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."

    John 5:39
    "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    Luke 24:44
    "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

    John 5:46
    "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."


    Remember though, the letter J was not used in the English language until the 16th Century

    When was the letter J introduced to the English language?
    The letter J was first distinguished from 'I' by the Frenchman Pierre Ramus in the 16th century, but did not become common in Modern English until the 17th century, so that early 17th century works such as the first edition of the King James Version of the Bible (1611) continued to print the name with an I."

    https://www.quora.com/If-the-letter...600-how-did-Jesus-get-his-name-2013-years-ago


    ‘Isa ibn Maryam



     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting...... I had heard about this perhaps forty years ago........
    and it is really nice to read this repeated!
     
  10. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Donor

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    First let us consider rome and the bar kochba revolt and the history of Jewish revolt against rome

    Generally speaking, what was Roman policy about revolt in the conquered territories?
    The clear history is that rome handled revolt in a VERY draconian manner. They destroyed cities, eliminated entire civilizations, and either killed or enslaved the people. This is indisputable.

    Now consider the Jews. They had been an annoyance for a long time. In fact, the last straw for the Romans wa# the third Jewish revolt. Which implies there were two previous revolts. The third Jewish revolt temporarily kicked out rome and proclaimed Jewish independence.

    There is no way in the world rome would let that situation stand. So they sent a massive legionary force to crush the Jewish rebels....AND to make sure there would not be a fourth Jewish revolt! Further, they wanted anyone else who was even thinking about revolt to learn a good lesson by observing what happened to the Jews. So, the Roman legions frame of mind when they arrived in Palestine was to administer a memorable posterior kicking. A final solution to the Jewish problem.

    So, keeping that in mind, we can have a pretty good idea of how the third Jewish revolt was handled... with absolute and unconditional ruthlessness. Lots and lots of people were killed outright. Many other people were shipped around the empire to be slaves. We know this from documentary evidence as well as understanding this was standard Roman policy, as well as observing the residual Jewish populations that were established around the empire. And, yes, the Romans would want the land of Palestine to continue to be economically productive... and so they would have left some workers (probably slaves) to work the land.

    The Jews left behind would not have been radical Jews. Otoh, there is absolutely no evidence that a huge number of Jews had become followers of jesus and were left behind for this reason. They were simply ordinary farmers; they were not radicalized Jews; they were happy to continue to lead their ordinary lives without fighting the Roman legions

    Fwiw
    When jesus died, he died as an executed criminal. He had a fairly small following... probably less than 100-200 people. Generally the idea that jesus was the messiah was entirely different from the triumphant messiah that Jews were anticipating. And for this reason the jesus community remained small among Jews of Israel.

    In conclusion
    Today’s palestinians are mostly not the descendants of early Christians
    They are likely mostly depecendens of Jewish slaves who worked the land for the Romans... as well as various other people’s who have migrated to the area over the last 2000 years

    For me, the idea that Jews are historically entitled to the lands is Ancient Judaea is akin to saying that American Indians are historically entitled to the USA
     
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  11. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    Sura 29 and 46 are both from the Meccan Qur'an, and are not valid anymore
     
  12. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    When Muhammed was thrown out of Mecca, he sought refuge with the jews of Yathrub, along with a dozen followers and his 8 year old wife.

    During this time he wrote good things about the Jews.

    Then he conquered Mecca, and turned his sights on the Jews, de-humanizing them first, and then murdering all he could find. That is the manes over puberty, he took the females for distribution amongst the muslims.


    He conquered Yathryb, changing the name to Medina, and started the Medina Quran, which decreed death for non-believers.
     
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  13. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    When there are two contradicting verses in Islamic text, it is the one written later that is valid.

    This can be confusing, because the Qur'an is not in chronological order.
     
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  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    IF... Orthodox Jewish scholar Yair Davidiy is correct that
    Americans.... are significantly descended from the lost tribes of Israel.......
    then the predicted regathering of the Lost Tribes of Israel......
    could be good news for the 48 Tribes of North America?


    http://www.britam.org/
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  15. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wouldnt that imply that much of europe is similarly descended. It seems far fetched to imagine it as feasible for so many people to re gather in tiny israel... and even more far fetched to imagine israelis to agree to this idea

    Doesnt it seem more likely that the palestinians are remnants of the lost tribes?
     
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  16. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    First century church may have numbered 400,000... did the majority convert to Islam?

    After two centuries of Persian rule, the Macedonian ruler Alexander the Great, during his war against Persia, attacked and burned Tyre, the most prominent Phoenician city. He conquered what is now Lebanon and other nearby regions in 332 BCE.[5] After Alexander's death the region was absorbed into the Seleucid Empire and became known as Coele-Syria.

    Christianity was introduced to the coastal plain of Lebanon from neighboring Galilee, already in the 1st century. The region, as with the rest of Syria and much of Anatolia, became a major center of Christianity. In the 4th century it was incorporated into the Christian Byzantine Empire. Mount Lebanon and its coastal plain became part of the Diocese of the East, divided to provinces of Phoenice Paralia and Phoenice Libanensis (which also extended over large parts of modern Syria).

    During the late 4th and early 5th centuries, a hermit named Maron established a monastic tradition, focused on the importance of monotheism and asceticism, near the mountain range of Mount Lebanon. The monks who followed Maron spread his teachings among the native Lebanese Christians and remaining pagans in the mountains and coast of Lebanon. These Lebanese Christians came to be known as Maronites, and moved into the mountains to avoid religious persecution by Roman authorities.[6] During the frequent Roman–Persian Wars that lasted for many centuries, the Sassanid Persians occupied what is now Lebanon from 619 to 629.

    During the 7th century AD the Muslim Arabs conquered Syria soon after the death of Muhammad, establishing a new regime to replace the Romans (or Byzantines as the Eastern Romans are sometimes called). Though Islam and the Arabic language were officially dominant under this new regime, the general populace still took time to convert from Christianity and the Syriac language. In particular, the Maronite community clung to its faith and managed to maintain a large degree of autonomy despite the succession of rulers over Syria. Muslim influence increased greatly in the seventh century, when the Umayyad capital was established at nearby Damascus.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lebanon


    During the 11th century the Druze faith emerged from a branch of Islam. The new faith gained followers in the southern portion of Lebanon. The Maronites and the Druze divided Lebanon until the modern era. The major cities on the coast, Acre, Beirut, and others, were directly administered by Muslim Caliphs. As a result, the people became increasingly absorbed by Arabic culture.




    so Conversion would have taken place after 632 a.d, the 7th Century.. After the death of Muhammad and after Muhammad was given to the Arabs as a guide to the 'lost sheep'.

    John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."


    [​IMG]
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    061.006

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    Sahih International: And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."



    But when 'who' came to them with clear evidences?? When Ahmad came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."



    And many say, 'Down with those that speak of Muhammad in ways they do to Christ! Cursed be the non Muhammadists'!


    Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."


    Muhammad might also say, 'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from God.'


    Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord (Adonay) said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    003.051

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Sahih International: Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    3.45-50 Sahih International:

    [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].

    He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

    She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.

    And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

    And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

    And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.


    ----


    yet some still say, 'Away with them! away! they believe in an apostasy! Far be it that Allah should have a son'!


    21.26
    'And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants.'

    19.35 'It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.'

    19.92 'And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.'


    son:

    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wld#(19:92:6)




    Of course it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that HE should take a son.. A son sins and is corruptible. A son lies and cheats and kills and destroys. A son rapes and murders even members of his own household. Of course it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that HE should take such a son in his sinful nature.


    3.47
    She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/harut-and-marut.533922/


    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes... the Palestinians are remnants of the Lost Tribes of Israel... that is true.....
    but :

    Genesis 35:11

    "And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"

    http://www.britam.org/Patriarch4.html

    .....
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well this is interesting.......

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/266529963945299/permalink/304367280161567/
    "Muslims Jews Christians Hindus mutual respect group"

     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    What's you view of the importance of Leviticus in modern society?

    Being aware that the Kaaba was for a time a center of worship for various heathen idols before the advent of Islam, what relevance to today do you see in your few short verses from Kings.
     
  20. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    All the marketplaces of all the settlements had Kab'bas.
    The people would bring their offerings.
    This was the brainchild of Luhayy who brought the idea from Syria.
    Basically a pile of rocks representing the different gods.
    Hubal was the main god.
    The Moon god would morph into Allah.
    The Moon god married the Sun God and they had 3 daughters. el-Lat, el-Uzza, and Manat.
    These would be main Gods at lesser Kab'bas.
    It had a custodian, the one in Mecca was owned by the Qusayy family.
    Muhammed was adopted into the Qusayy family, but did not qualify to inherit it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Muhammed makes it crystal clear that the God of the Bible is the one true God.

    It has been common practice for religions of the world to sell those of other religions by creating a pathway in their pantheon.

    This idea of the moon becoming Allah is probably a reference to how Islam incorporated those of other religions which had a moon god.
     
  22. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  23. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    And he also says to kill the Christians and Jews, and a slew of other crap nobody else agrees with.
    He set new goalposts for the other religions, naturally they don't agree with him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  24. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    In all common sense, Islam is a pathway to Hell.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he was in a war that was religiously inspired.

    Please remember that he also said that there would be Jews, Christians and Muslims together in heaven.
     

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