It would seem that the Brits escaped the image of the Red army. There were atrocities carried out by allies, in Dresden, in Cologne. Some of the worst human rights violations and sadistic acts were committed during the post war occupation of Germany. The Red Army is responsible for mass rape, by some sources also torture and mass murder of civilians. But it's not unheard of for rape and other abuses to have been carried out in the British zone of occupation. I think it's only understandable that the Germans would resent the Red army. Do the Brits deserve the more favourable image they have with Germany today?
May I introduce you to the concept of German war crimes and crimes against humanity? Nothing the British did would come even close.
It's a topic for debate my friend, no need to state the obvious. What I'd like to explore would be the power of propaganda or lack thereof. I had a debate yesterday with someone who was determined to attest that the British people, due to Nazi propaganda and rewritten history, would feel ashamed of Churchill and idolise Hitler had they lost. I opposed this position for a few reasons but I'd like to know what people think. The fact is the German people went through hell under allied occupation. There was rape, torture, forced labour camps. Have the Germans forgiven? If so, why?
I don't think the Brits were quite as awful to the German people as the Red Army was, but then Germany was not as bad to the British as they were towards the Russians. I think intent matters though, ergo the difference between crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.
Can I just ask everyone sincerely though. If Germany had won... can you see them being able to hide the holocaust and effectively wipe it from history? Maybe even create a benevolent figure out of Hitler, "the man who unified Europe" say, and subsequently demonise Churchill and Roosevelt, through means of propaganda and destruction of evidence? (there is a book called "Fatherland" which suggests some of this) For me it's a hard one to swallow, I don't think there has ever been a genocide in recent history which has been completely hidden no matter how propagandists may try, dissenters tend to expose the truth at some point. Thoughts? (oh and my understanding is the Red Army were positively monstrous compared to the Brits)
There are two reasons why they wouldn't have been able to hide if they had won. First because of Hitler's idiotic idea of "Lebensraum" basically he wouldn't have stopped with the Jews and I think people would notice if almost half a continent went missing and is replaced by a different ethnic group in such a short time, people like China and the US. Second, because of the Catholic Church. Would he have destroyed this if he had won? No, because the man who was Pope during World War Two was so scared of communism he sympathized with fascism and even helped Catholic war criminals escape after the war ended. However, after Pius XII was John XXIII the guy responsible for Vatican II. During the war he objected to the holocaust, and went all over Europe asking for leaders to spare people's lives. I think he would have exposed it, and even if he were killed for it, the Vatican's influence is worldwide.
Jesus, I never thought I'd feel so relieved at the mention of the Vatican's influence. For the last view days I've felt like Winston in room 101. Life is weird.
Germans have generally dropped the attitude. Their favorable outlook has inspired neighbours and ex-rivals, who are in turn invited to reflect modestly on themselves. But it's mainly a European phenomenon; and it's fresh.
