Giving Up On Biofuels

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Taxcutter, Feb 14, 2012.

  1. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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  2. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Even with the taxes Europe puts on petroleum, to offset the cost of bio-fuels. $150 to $200 a barrel isn't enough.

    Oil product from algae will be the reality of the future, but not until significant breakthroughs are made in genitic engineering a variant that relies on man to protect it, so it dedicates all it's energy to making oil.
     
  3. livefree

    livefree Banned

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    Why does it always seem like you're shilling for Exxon or something?

    Why do you push such easily debunked and extremely idiotic propaganda memes like this one - "all alternative energy bad, not work right, too expensive, but oil good, only thing can save us"?

    LOLOLOLOL. Sure seems like a hidden agenda to me.

    Petroleum is going to be phased out for very, very good reasons.

    Natural gas is still a carbon emitting energy source that furthers anthropogenic global warming/climate changes.

    Some excerpts from the article you cited:

    Amyris’s technology may still be used to make renewable fuels, but this will happen not at Amyris, but under joint ventures established with Total and Cosan. These ventures will need to build up their own production capacity, Melo told analysts. Amyris wants to make clear that it isn’t giving up on its current, relatively small scale, biofuel production. Some of the farnesene Amyris makes is being used to make diesel fuel for buses in Brazil, and Amyris will continue to make farnesene for fuel until the joint ventures are up and running, says Joel Velasco, senior vice president for external relations. As Amyris adds more farnesene capacity this year, some of that, too, could be used for the production of fuel, he says.

    Not all biofuels companies are backing off from biofuels though. Mascoma, which has developed a process for making ethanol from cellulosic sources such as wood chips, announced in December that it had fully funded the construction of a cellulosic ethanol plant. Construction is expected to begin within a few months, to be completed by the end of 2013.


    Moreover, some facts you would undoubtedly like to ignore ---

    Ethanol fuel in Brazil
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (excerpts)

    Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8% of the world's production in 2010.[1][2] In 2010 Brazil produced 26.2 billion litres (6.92 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 30.1% of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.[1]

    Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader,[3][4][5][6] a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."[7]

    Brazil’s 36-year-old ethanol fuel program is based on the most efficient agricultural technology for sugarcane cultivation in the world,[11] uses modern equipment and cheap sugar cane as feedstock, the residual cane-waste (bagasse) is used to process heat and power, which results in a very competitive price and also in a high energy balance (output energy/input energy), which varies from 8.3 for average conditions to 10.2 for best practice production.[5][12]

    The widespread use of ethanol brought several environmental benefits to urban centers regarding air pollution. Lead additives to gasoline were reduced through the 1980s as the amount of ethanol blended in the fuel was increased, and these additives were completely eliminated by 1991. The addition of ethanol blends instead of lead to gasoline lowered the total carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, sulfur emissions, and particulate matter significantly.[177] The use of ethanol-only vehicles has also reduced CO emissions drastically. Before the Pró-Álcool Program started, when gasoline was the only fuel in use, CO emissions were higher than 50 g/km driven; they had been reduced to less than 5.8 g/km in 1995.[68] Several studies have also shown that São Paulo has benefit with significantly less air pollution thanks to ethanol's cleaner emissions.[177] Furthermore, Brazilian flex-fuel engines are being designed with higher compression ratios, taking advantage of the higher ethanol blends and maximizing the benefits of the higher oxygen content of ethanol, resulting in lower emissions and improving fuel efficiency.[178]
     
  4. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    No one has to shill for Exxon.

    I just don't like my money going down a rat-hole for something that probably does not work.

    Petroleum did not take over because of some deep dark conspiracy. It simply works better than anything else.

    When somebody comes along with a better fuel, the use of petroleum will disappear overnight.

    For decades Kodak dominated photography. Digital photography came along and now Kodak is gone. The same will happen with oil when something better comes along.

    About every thirty years or so people seem to have to try to re-invent the wheel. Solar and wind energy were tried for centuries and found wanting - again and again. They were tried in the late 1930s, the 1970s and now today. Same result each time. Same with electric cars. Electric cars have always been betrayed by the poor performance of their batteries.

    Government should butt out of the energy field.
     
  5. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Hidden agenda???? Bio-fuels aren't viable until I can buy them at the pump. Until then, they are nothing but a science project.

    As far as ethanol and Brazil, it was cheaper for them, who wisely used sugar cane instead of corn. We can buy ethanol, shipped from Brazil, cheaper than we can the (formerly) subsidized stuff from the US. Lets see how much oil Brazil uses, now that oil is off their shores.
     
  6. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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  7. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    That doesn't mean their electric cars work worth a hoot.
     
  8. danboy9787

    danboy9787 New Member

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    An alternative will arise when we need it. That is the problem. It doesn't matter how much you subsidize something, if people don't care or need it then it won't work. If we ran out of oil tomorrow, we would have an alternative within a week. Because it would become extremely important for the economy and our way of life.
     
  9. Trinnity

    Trinnity Banned

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    Any mechanic can tell you, that stuff is nasty. Gunks up your engine. Don't use it.
     
  10. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    livefree's maundering about ethanol from sugar cane in Brazil made me wonder if the workers in the tropical cane brakes wouldn't gladly trade places with the workers at Foxconn.

    Chopping sugar cane with a machete in the tropical sun has got to be brutal work. Are the Brazilian braceros paid as well as the folks at Foxconn? Somehow, I doubt it.
     
  11. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    Foxconn has a factory in Brazil - wonder how wages compare.
     
  12. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    The Brazilians working at Foxconn could go back to the cane brakes if chopping cane paid better.
     
  13. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes and another unintended consequence of the so-called 'green' movement...

    "Brazil, Paraguay, Indonesia among others have huge deforestation programmes to supply the world biofuel market", says the study's co-author Dominick Spracklen from Leeds University.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2007/aug/17/biofuelsmenacerainforests

    Unfortunately the rainforests are taking the hit as land for sugar-cane growing is more valuable because of the fake eco-fraud 'bio-fuel' market.
     
  14. Not Amused

    Not Amused New Member

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    It seems rain forest is pretty fragile, man was able to wipe out huge tracts in Africa, 3000 years ago (nary a drop of oil involved).

    http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/5282/african-rainforest-loss-caused-humans

    But, then the US may be coming to the rescue:

    http://www.sj-r.com/archive/x1679446067/Brazilian-demand-gives-U-S-ethanol-producers-a-big-boost

    Of course, that evergreen state CA, is importing ethanol from Brazil at the same time?!?

    I guess the ocean and Panama canal are easier to cross than the Rocky mountains.
     
  15. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Great find...I love this!!

    "California was poised to become an importer of Brazilian sugarcane ethanol in 2012 because the state’s Low Carbon Fuel Standard placed a lower carbon value on sugarcane ethanol than corn ethanol."


    California's Air Resources Board is to blame. They are considered a rogue agency by many Californianians...

    http://killcarb.org/

    That's KILLCARB (Kill the California Air Resources Board)

    They are already responsible for polluting groundwater with their MTBE additive that is now banned from all gasoline in CA. NOW they have decided to allot carbon credits to fuel and manipulate the marketing of bio-masses for fuels.

    Does anyone think that bio-fuels are anything more than the 'green' industry creating their own 'market' through political manipulation?
     
  16. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    MTBE in groundwater is less of a problem than denatured alcohol in the groundwater.
     
  17. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    That's the problem.

    The bastard environmentalists are doing everything they can to force America to artificially run out of oil as quickly as they possibly can.
     
  18. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are correct but, the only reason MTBE is NOT a huge problem now is because it is now banned and has been for some time.

    Also, CA mandated that gas stations who were not 'compliant' with new ground-tank regulations, were forced to dig them up, have any ground pollution cleaned up and replace them in order to 'fix' the problem that the CA CARB created in the first place. Errr...No CA did not provide $$$$ for this process...Gas station owners did it on their own 'dime' or face being shut down.

    BTW Californians pay extra $$$$ for every gallon of gas because that State has mandated 're-formulated' gas which limits it's suppliers.
     
  19. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's Obama's plan too...Remember he said that fuel prices would 'necessarily' go up? He kept his promise.
     
  20. livefree

    livefree Banned

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    I'm sure you have no idea just how insane that sounds to anyone who isn't a hard-core rightwingnut.
     

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