Govt shutdown and military personnel

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by modernpaladin, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    How long must servicemembers go without pay before they can legally or lawfully abandon their post?

    Philosophical answers are welcome, but Im primarily looking for technical answers.

    And no, Im not in the armed services.
     
  2. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One in the U.S. military can only abandon their post when they are lawfully ordered to abandon their post.
     
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  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    so pay isnt a guarantee?
     
  4. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    In the Soviet Union they sold their equipment and hired themselves out as mercenaries.
     
  5. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From what I remember there was no mention of base pay, housing, chow or access to medical care mentioned in the original enlistment contract.

    Once you sign the contract and take the oath you basically don't have any Constitutional rights and your ass belongs to Uncle Sam.

    Now some minorities who fall under being one of the protective groups may get some special protections and privileges in the name of political correctness.
     
  6. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Those are assumed under the military pay and benefits structure and implied however one can't just walk off even if one isn't paid however if this mess happens long enough and such it will harm morale especially for married soldiers with families who need their income and benefits. I could see people asking for the right to go home and work if its needed until such time as they have the ability to get paid. But our fighting men and women are patriotic enough to stay working if ordered to in the main.
     
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  7. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    I believe that the more relevant question is to ask how long we're going to continue spending trillions of dollars that we do not have in order to send our people to occupy the world absent a declaration of war. Article I Section 8 is rather clear of Congress' responsibility with regard to the matter.

    Unless anyone can provide links to a declaration of war, it must be contended that any post on any nation's borders is itself illegal occupation.

    And if we want to question whether any active duty military should or should not walk off their post, it is far wiser to ask the question in the proper context of relevance...

    Enlistment Oath - "I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States...."
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  8. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    By the way. The less government, the better. The federal government does not produce anything. Therefore it has nothing. Consequently, it cannot fund anything. It can only anoint itself unconstitutional authority to steal from others at the barrel of a government gun and redistribute others' wealth to fund its unconstitutional endeavors.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  9. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    And one may only place a soldier on post if one possesses the constitutional authority to do so. See Article 1 Section 8.
     
  10. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    Absent a declaration of war, occupation is unconstitutional. It is illegal occupation. It's bullying. It's instigating blowback. Since when is unconstitutional occupation and antagonization of people who aren't doing anything to us considered to be patriotic?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  11. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    Ah well. You know, I read dialogue like this and I'm reminded of just how much of a failure government education actually is. Really.

    Of course, it mught be considered a success from the perspective of the government educators and the media indoctrinators. Good grief. What an upside down world we live in today.

    On that note, I'm leaving this thread.

    But I do want to remind people what they're actually supporting by echoing this sideshow...

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  12. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I don't know if there is an actual time table for this. What I do know is that servicemembers will determine how long they deem working without pay is acceptable until they quit working. Especially during war.

    I've seen this happen twice, once about 14 years ago and another time back in 2011. When I was in Afghanistan back in 2011 something got screwed up with the pay for a few weeks and nobody was getting paid. Troops tolerated it for about a week then a huge chunk collectively decided that they were just not going to leave the wire again until they got paid in full and their backpay deposited.

    I wasn't among those refusing to patrol but plenty of my friends were. I don't blame them, they have families back home and they are putting their actual lives on the line each moment they are in a warzone and expecting them to do that without pay is comical. In spite of what many believe, the military doesn't really pay you THAT much. Many troops live paycheck to paycheck like many of their civilian counterparts and they couldn't afford to not receive a paycheck for their families for weeks. So they basically quit doing their job until it was resolved, obviously much to the dismay of brass who threatened them non stop with UCMJ which everybody ignored. Even our Platoon Sergeant laid there on his cot for a few days...

    As of right now the military is funded until Feb 1. If the government shutdown isn't resolved by then then we may not get paid in the middle of February. I don't know how folks will react to that back stateside, I've only ever seen this happen while I was deployed. I personally, being single, have enough in savings to keep me afloat for a few months if necessary but not everyone has that luxury.

    I for one would personally blame nobody who decided to no longer report for duty if we don't get paid in February. Contracts, obligations, oaths, and morality be damned. This is still a job, we are still people most of whom have families who need money to survive like everybody else. I believe there is a bit of a misconception about military service from years of movies and whatnot. The whole patriotism above all else stuff is largely a rumor and propaganda. Servicemembers fight because they pay us to fight, sure patriotism plays a role in a lot of folks decisions but not nearly as large of a role as many believe.

    That's the harsh reality but it's the truth. If it weren't true then all branches of service wouldn't be having such a hard time getting people to do this job right now and they wouldn't be virtually on their hands and knees begging military pilots to stop quitting and going to join the airlines who pay them more without the inhuman amount of stress and pressure that comes with military aviation.

    Sorry folks, but patriotism doesn't feed your kids. The military is having a difficult time convincing people to stay in right now even while folks ARE getting paid. Not paying the military during this recruitment and retention crisis is probably not the best idea....I would highly recommend the government pass some sort of legislation to pay the military no matter what, government shut down or not.
     
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  13. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    We're 21 trillion dollars in debt. We're broke. Where's the money going to come from to support all of this illegal occupation?
     
  14. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Dunno, I'm not an economist nor do I run the budget. All I'm saying is that in the current climate of recruitment and retention issues NOT paying the military is probably not the best of ideas. The Federal Government may have to make a choice as to what will be less detrimental to the nation. Cutting funding or rerouting funding from other programs to ensure the military gets their paychecks or further pissing off an already pissed off military by not paying them for awhile and hope they come to work.

    I don't know what people will do if we don't get paid. I can only go off of what I've seen in the past but that was during deployments. I'm not deployed right now I'm in the US so I don't know if troops will be more willing to still work without pay if they aren't in physical danger or if they will stay home and/or goto work and refuse to do anything.
     
  15. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the US should fly all of the troops home and then release them from service. Lots of money saved, and lots of lives saved. Win win.
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    democrats wanted to vote on a bill to pay them while the government was closed like we do Congress, the republican leadership refused.... why?
     
  17. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the dreamers came here when children, many are in the military, teachers, ect... they know no other country, they are Americans in all sense of the word accept on paper
     
  18. Jimmy79

    Jimmy79 Well-Known Member

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    The military is required to house and feed all personell on garrison.

    Periodic payment isnt really a requirement, though it will be hard to recruit people if they arent going to be paid.
     
  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all government employees still get paid, just non-essential ones get a paid vacation, i see your point, just correcting you that no money would be saved
     
  20. Natural Citizen

    Natural Citizen Active Member

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    I don't debat that.

    I'm merely debating the legality of all of these undeclared wars that are already costing us trillions of dollars.
     
  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    were gonna be more in debt with this huge corporate tax cut republicans passed recently
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  22. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Well I look at things from a realist perspective and I can tell you now that no the US will not do that, at least not in the foreseeable future. They will likely do what they always do when these things happen. Backpay the troops when funding becomes available and keep on rolling.
     
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  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Of course they will. Anything else would make sense.
     
  24. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    oh, sorry, misunderstood, yes, I agree there too, I did not support the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan should of lasted months, not 10+ years
     
  25. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    For what its worth I agree with you to some extent. I think we are extended too thin. I'm not so much on the moral aspect as you are I'm more about the finance and logistical aspect of it all and the overall health and well being of our troops. To me we are at the point now of either **** or get off the pot. We've been at war for nearly 2 decades, that's ridiculous, and to be honest the troops are just flat out tired. This is evident by the issues with retention and recruitment. Sure the previous administrations decision to cut the military hurt, now it's hard to get people to join to fill the numbers required for all of these operations all over the globe.

    The amount of stress this is putting on seasoned troops is evident and the future outlook of this seemingly having no end in sight is having an effect on retention and recruitment. Basically many of those currently serving have had enough and are getting out and many potential candidates are looking at this future and are unwilling to join up to be a part of it.

    You may be surprised at how many troops don't really think about the moral aspect of any of this, and how many don't even share the opinion that the American invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are immoral or illegal. I for one don't believe them to be immoral. It's not the moral aspect that is tiresome it's the fact that we have to keep dealing with these wars. Troops being deployed 3, 4, 5 + times during their tenures is exhausting and takes a huge toll on people and their families. A lot of folks are just tired of being gone all the damn time regardless of WHERE or WHY they are gone, just tired of being gone period.

    I of course am no Pentagon high ranking guy so I don't make these decisions nor do I really even understanding the underlying nature behind why many of these decisions are made. But I personally feel that America needs to tailor it's operations based on it's ability to conduct them while placing a REASONABLE amount of stress on the troops. Right now due to global conflicts we have far exceeded what I consider to be a reasonable amount of stress on troops due to 17 years of warfare and no real end in sight. All being currently conducted with inadequate amounts of personnel.

    That's why I'm saying I don't feel it wise for the federal government to not pay troops right now regardless of whats going on. Many troops are already pissed off due to the aforementioned, not paying them right now may not be the best idea...Basically I don't think the government can afford to piss off the troops any more than they are already currently doing...
     

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