Gun control laws the biggest con job in Australian history

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/o...y/news-story/b818139b0cc155c1ab7228ae6d0373cc

Good reason not to follow Australia's example....does anyone thing more nanny state control is necessary?

 

That's the funny thing.

They try to tout their gun control as having stopped mass shootings in their country, yet they only had one major incident in their history.

The other funny thing is that their rates of illegal gun ownership charges have soared in their country across the board, drug crimes are skyrockting, and so far this year their crime rate has been giving the police fits.

Here's what they don't seem to understand: those of criminal intent hid their guns during the confiscations, laughing the entire time at the morons turning them in.

 

Don't seem to be able to pound it in their head, it ain't the gun, Good post

 

Ease up on the "morons" insult. Those were law-abiding gun owners who surrendered their firearms when they became illegal.

As for crime. Not relevant. Firearms control laws are about minimising harm from legitimately owned firearms. Crooks will get firearms if they need them and firearms control laws are irrelevant to them. However, as the law requires secure storage of firearms it does lessen the chances of crooks getting them by doing breaks on houses and clubrooms.

Crime rates? Not too bad at all. Again, nothing to do with firearms control laws.

As for the laws themselves. I happen to think it was a stupid, populist stunt. Tasmania had to tighten their laws because they were crap. Everyone else was doing okay but thanks to Tassie we all got shafted by Howard.

 

While I wasn't the user of the word moron, I get your point (mostly valid) and I get where our society gets it's perception of those who needlessly or robotically follow government edicts for such a personally held belief. You echo our beliefs that gun laws burden the law abiding while empowering the criminal....I can see where moronic is appropriate in its description of those who support laws such as that championed by Howard. I like your post!

 

Your country allowed a handful of people to decide for you that you couldn't be trusted with firearms, it is what it is.

Firearms control laws do not minimize harm from legitimately owned firearms. In the US our accident rates are lower than they've been since they started keeping records in the early 1900's.

Crime is extremely relevant when the aggressors have guns and the victims have swiss army knives.

Here's what's really happening in Australia:

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/11/10/australias-secret-gun-problem-exposed/

 

I wonder where's bowerbird. She should have a nice reply to this.

 

This forum is a gun love fest, there is not much point putting forward a counter view or counter point.

It is like a competition to see who can have the strongest pro gun position. I wish you gents the best in your little competition and your little online community.

 

Key word; "Little" or unimportant, trivial, trite, as somebody gets sanctimonious and croaks an
old Bull Frog's Anti Gun melody.....

 

Thanks, we will.

 

Oh look criminals in australia shooting up markets: http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...m/news-story/76f813ef4b419e47340f7a3eef30e93e

Criminal usage of guns doubled in Australia in the last 10 years: http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...m/news-story/76f813ef4b419e47340f7a3eef30e93e

As the problem of drugs and criminal ownership of guns continues to double in Australia, I sincerely hope your cricket bats are up to the task of keeping you safe.

 

Nice that you have an opinion.

 

Sometimes representative democracy irks me. When the government does something I don't like I take note.

I'm pleased to hear the US firearms accident rates are low. Good education and training will do that. The stories about toddlers shooting people are tragic though.

There's probably a qualitative difference in crime between our two countries. The black market handguns are for those involved in the drug market. We don't get too many street muggings with crooks with handguns. They might have a knife or a syringe or a baseball bat though. Also our police forces are quite effective. They tend to be standardised in terms of quality of service due to the development of our various polities. That does deter quite a bit of crime - not enough but enough for the average man (the experience would be different for a woman) to feel quite safe wandering around at night.

 

Dependence on a Professional Police Force is always going to be Second Rate compared to Citizens Defending themselves against Criminals, to equate Self Defense with Taking the Law into Your own hands is disingenuous at best, it is usual and most disappointing to arrive at a scene and find a deceased victim rather than a live victor and a deceased criminal, as the Police are usually too late to save a helpless and unarmed victim.

Only prepared and determined, Armed citizens will be able to successfully defend themselves and avoid becoming a victim.....

 

There'd been almost 1 mass shooting per year in the 20 years prior to Port Arthur.

 

Excluding Port Arthur as a dividing line, as well as excluding the Snowton murders which is unclear as to what side the murders lie on:

From 1996 to 2014 there were 62 Australians killed in "massacres".

From 1978 to 1996 there were 77 Australians killed in "massacres".

So in the same number of years both before and after Port Arthur, the difference is about 1 person per year post gun confiscations. All it would have taken is one more stabbing or arsonist to flip it the other way.

Your gun control crime reduction is a placebo effect that makes you feel safer, but the truth is, you're not.

Additionally, do you really think if someone wanted to commit another mass murder in Australia with guns or explosives, that the gun confiscation and anti-gun laws would stop it?

 

The honest truth is that outside of gangland America is as safe as any other country.

It is drugs that fuel gun crime, plain and simple. Drugs also start to fuel street level crime, since much of it is drug addicts doing whatever they need to do in order to buy drugs.

Drugs are the problem in the US, not guns.

There are towns in Idaho, Texas and Georgia that have more guns than people and have the lowest gun crime rates in the nation.

Part of the problem is that we share a border with some of the most violent, drug producing countries on earth.

 

2014 you have 23 M australians
1996 you have 18 M australians
1976 you have 14 M australians

Thus per capita the massacre stats have decreased significantly.

Also have a look at the actual massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

I think you have included the snowtown murders in post 96 numbers even though when they happened exactly was unknown between 1992 and 1999. Thus really they should come out of both comparisons. TBH I have different figures to you.

you have used dates to help your argument and tbh I am not sure wikipedia is comprehensive but if you go for 10 years the numbers are not so helpful for you with 87 deaths between 87-96 and 17 between 97 and 06.

See more details below

1987 5 Shooting
1987 7 Shooting
1987 5 Shooting
1988 6 shooting
1989 0
1990 5 shooting
1991 7 shooting
1992 6 shooting
1993 5 shooting / siege
1994 0
1995 0
1996 6 shooting
1996 35 shooting

Total 87
Then laws change
Next ten years

1997 0
1998 0
1999 0
2000 15 Arson / fire
2001 0
2002 2 shooting spree (international student)
2003 0
2004 0
2005 0
2006 0

Total 17

 

I will concede though it appears we are more prone to arson as it seems to have picked up again post 2006 for the record according to wiki there are no more massacres until 2009.

By all means, keep on arguing for your gun rights in america, keep on fighting what you believe is the good fight, but don't try and bull(*)(*)(*)(*) away the things we have done very well here in australia and one of them is bring massacres (especially by guns) way down and ensure that gun culture is not only out of the main stream but it is ridiculed and reserved for the lunatic nuts who have no respect from the rest of the rest of the honest hard working australians.

 

Actually what I did was use the numbers up to and including the most recent information, which you didn't do.

I counted the 18 years after port arthur, and the 18 years before port arthur, and included the other 1996 issue.

I also stated I did not count the Snowton murders because it is not clear when they actually occurred. Could go either way, I don't know.

The point is, massacres continue, and the body count difference on either side of Port Arthur is not significant.

 

You encourage gun use, it will happen both with criminals and victims. You will have more armed victims and more criminals.

By that same argument you could also decrease gun use, have less armed criminals and less armed victims.

I know which society I would prefer to live in and contrary to your ordinary assumption I do not rely on professional police, I just have to prepare for/respond to far less violent threats then what war torn americans do.

 

Murdered is murdered, the method is irrelevant.

There is no evidence that your gun confiscations have done anything when it comes to mass shootings at the level of Port Arthur, because you only had one incident like that in your history. If you think it couldn't happen again because of confiscating some guns and hanging up gun free zone signs I'd say you're not being realistic.

Your last few sentences says it all, you see anyone who has a gun as a lunatic, or criminal preying on "honest hard working australians." Guns are not a moral compass and owning a gun doesn't make you a murderer any more than owning gasoline or a baseball bat.

Your crime is going up, drug crime and usage is going up, gun crime and prosecutions are going up. Basically all you've done is ensure that only people who have no concern for human life are the only ones with guns, and "honest hard working australians" have no recourse other than hoping police are nearby when someone tries to murder or rape them.

Your country is welcome to the choice of being disarmed, but personally I think you're at the point right now where the snowball coming downhill is gaining speed.

We'll see.

 

I agree that massacres do continue. But gun ones have certainly decreased.

I did it for ten years, its a nice easy comparison. Just like you did, the time period suited my argument, yours suited yours. You have to include port arthur, as martin bryant had his hands on a gun, in a pre gun reform culture. Then measure it after that culture changes.

Australia is still by no means perfect and still have a lot of guns we need to get rid off. A lot.

We also have other issues with crazies and arson and stabbings.

Whether we will ever get to a utopia here, I doubt it but we will sure as (*)(*)(*)(*) try and we will tend not to vote for extremist speds who your constitutes can not see through and who funds them.

 

You discouraged gun use, and your gun crime prosecutions are up 80% or more in every area of australia. Cocaine trafficking charges are up over 50%. Those two things go hand in hand.

Here's the thing I think gun control proponents don't get: You cannot keep guns out of the hands of those who seek to murder other human beings. If they scoff at the penalties for murder, in what regard do you think they hold gun laws? You're seeing criminals with guns growing rapidly in Australia. It has doubled in the last 10 years.

Laws against guns do nothing when criminals ignore laws against murder.

If I had the choice, I would also live on an island in the middle of nowhere that doesn't share a border with the most violent, drug running countries on earth....along with about 10% of the population of our country.

Yeah I'd pick that one too.

 

No I do not think owning a gun is a moral decision either. It is a practical one based on the community and society you live in.

That community and society is dictated by the laws and cultures of it.

IMO australia has two main groups with guns
1 - police / armed forces
2 - rural people / farmers /

Then there are the small minority

3 - hardened criminals
4 - hunters / shooters / shooting sports people.

I don't think most soft crime has guns in it in australia from my experience.

The point is, I am proud that my community chooses for the most part to trust eachother and lay down our weapons as opposed to fearing our neighbours and having a cold war type fear going through the cities and suburbia.

But you are right, there are challenges ahead for our community as there is for the global community, which lets face it are coming closer and closer together. I hope our response to htose challenges is one made from understanding, helping, kindness and love as opposed to being made out of fear and separation.

And we obviously own cricket bats not baseball bats. Or a trolley handle if you are feeling particularly wild.