Guns & Stand Your Ground victory. Got a problem with that? video included.

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Moi621, Jul 20, 2018.

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Do YOU support this Stand Your Ground example of lethal gun defense?

  1. Yes

    59 vote(s)
    60.8%
  2. No

    38 vote(s)
    39.2%
  1. Nonsensei436

    Nonsensei436 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How about abother rule of thumb: if you carry a weapon because you’re ready if not eager to obliterate anyone who touches you, be ready to go to prison for murder.

    I’m sorry but this has to stop. This instant escalation from a brief scuffle to someone being murdered must be curbed. If the guy had just gotten up off the ground and waited for cops to arrive everyone would be alive and he would have gotten the boyfriend arrested for assault.

    I seriously doubt that the conceal carry law was intended to enshrine into law this sort of lethal response at the drop of a hat.
     
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  2. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Well if anyone ever attacks you you can let them kick you for 5 times to make certain.
     
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  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    That's what I saw too.
     
  4. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    liberals want you wait till you are on deaths door before self defense not caring if you wait till then it is to late for you to be able to defend your self
     
  5. Pred

    Pred Well-Known Member

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    And if after he hit the ground the guy curb stomped him? Or even worse his head hit the ground or he broke bones? Thug animals like that shouldn’t be allowed to live amongst the rest of us. What kind of person does that? The man obviously looked like he was handicapped all hunched over like that. A “shove” like that could have done a lot of damage.

    It wouldn’t have been justified if it was simply a verbal argument. But this was a violent attack not just a simple shove. The size difference showed who the coward was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  6. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is difficult to know if the shooter justifiably felt his life was in continuing danger, but once he presented his firearm, he had only two real choices; shoot his attacker, or try to hold all the hostiles at gunpoint until the cops arrived. The only alternative would be to allow the ass beating to continue, and potentially have his gun taken from him and used on him.

    I am here for respectful discussion. Another petty ad hom or insult from you will earn you a spot in my ignore list.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  7. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all it could take is one hit of kick to kill you
    should that victim have waited for that killing blow to acted in self defense?
     
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  8. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Usually people who get shoved remain standing. It's pretty clear the assailant meant to do bodily harm to the victim. The victim may have been dazed and not exactly thinking clearly when he pulled the gun and shot the assailant. IMO no jury would find the victim guilty unless they can prove without a doubt the victim was thinking clearly and knew his life was not in danger.
     
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  9. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    well if you murder someone you go to jail this isn't it's self-defense he was clearly attacked in an extremely brutal way

    randomly beating up people in parking lots for no reason I agree.
    well nobody got murdered in this instance so I don't know why you're bringing it up.

    oh so if someone attacks you you just got to sit there and get attacked that's a good idea.

    If the guy that died valued is life he maybe he should have made better choices.

    Well defense needs to be immediate otherwise it's nothing. If you don't want to get shot don't you run around attacking people simple.

    If you have a temper that makes you assault people for getting belligerent over parking spot then you need to seek help or go attack people until one of them kills you.

    And if you want to sit there and think it out while you're getting attacked you're welcome to do it.
     
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  10. BobbyRam

    BobbyRam Banned

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    He didn't kick anyone though he clearly had time to. If he was continuing his assault buddy wouldn't even of been able to pull his gun because he'd be on top of him. And you all admit he starts moving back once the gun is drawn. So the legality is questionable and certainly debatable but you all acknowledge hes moving back and there is no need to shoot at that point. As I said before I was in a situation where I had to decide to use my gun. I was sitting in my car arguing with man about what I cant remember but at some point he cursed at me, I gave him the finger and then he rushes me, leans half is body through my window and tries to choke me. I broke away grabbed my gun from the glove box and there was a second there where hes still trying to choke me but notices the gun and I could of shot him right then and there but it was clear he was coming to some conclusion this was a bad idea and a second after that he was walking away and no one had to die for some stupid reason neither of us can probably remember.

    They weren't exactly a horde of zombies. But I got you. As I said above I value human life enough that I would of waited.

    The ass beating, such as it was, was already over. Also don't know where you're from but where I'm from an ass beating involves more than a shove and you falling on your ass.

    :roflol:

    Whatever shall I do then! Please, I beg you anything but that!
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    oh so now you're able to read the mind of the Deadman I doubt your abilities.

    I will go by what I saw on the camera and not your tarot card mysticism.

    After he pushed the dude who fell down away from him and was walking toward in hitching up his pants he probably wasn't going to reach down and help him up.

    yeah he was dumb as dirt to go run around attacking people but even dumbasses have a little bit of sense I mean you made it to adulthood.

    well I wasn't there so I don't know it's debatable but the dude attacked him out of nowhere.

    you are lucky and so is he. But your situation doesn't sound anything like the one that occurred in this video.

    I personally don't know what I would have done I wasn't in that situation.

    because the attacker was shot

    so would probably be best to stop the person attempting to beat your ass before they do it.
     
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  12. leaulauzon

    leaulauzon Active Member

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    At 13 seconds, he was a bout 1 or 2 feet away from the guy on the ground. At 16 seconds, before being shot, he's about 5 feet away. You can't argue against that. The man on the ground doesn't shoot while the other man is close to him.

    If the "attacker" was clearly backing away after seeing the gun, the "victim" can't be considered a victim anymore as he as the upper hand. He was in no danger at the moment he shot. Shooting was clearly not necessary unless the "attacker" pressed forward.

    Can't you really not see that? Really? Or are you just playing dumb because you want to protect shooters at all cost?

    There are two action in there : taking your gun out and shooting. The two don't have to always go together. From the evidence we have, the first action seemed to be quite enough. The rest are just suppositions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  13. trucker

    trucker Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    stand by your gun:confusion:
     
  14. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fair enough. FWIW, if the guy had not been on the ground, I wouldn't be as inclined to side with the shooter. If he was on his feet, he could possibly have retreated.
    It looked to me that the ass beating was just getting started, and absent the firearm, would have most likely escalated. We cannot know. I doubt the assailant would have been happy with just shoving the guy once, after having walked all that way and all. Where I'm from, he who initiates the violence is in the wrong.
    Thanks for the effort at keeping it classy. ;)
     
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  15. SiNNiK

    SiNNiK Well-Known Member

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    Hitchin up one's britches is something one does before throwin' hands. Angry man took two additional steps after the shove and hitched up his britches in preparation for whooping the shooter.

    I wasn't actually wondering, i was being nice.
     
  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    How many shots were fired?

    So?

    From your easy chair perhaps.

    Can't see what? That some joker on the internet thinks they know the totality of the circumstances based on their arm chair evaluation of a video?
    So let's say this goes to trial and all the evidence points to self defense are you going to agree that it was or does watching a two minuet video make you the all knower?

    I remember when Andrew Zimmermen killed Trevon Martin. The evidence was clear that it was self defense but people still to this day don't accept it.

    No I won't defend the shooter at all costs, the evidence that I have seen makes it look like it's going to be easy to prove self defense. But, I don't know for sure. I'm okay with letting the justice system work. Are you?
     
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  17. leaulauzon

    leaulauzon Active Member

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    The argument isn't if the guy should have taken his gun out or not. The argument is should have he shot or not. I don't see anyone saying that a firearm shouldn't have been present or that the man on the ground wouldn't have been at a disadvantage had he not taken his gun out.

    He took the gun out. Fine. Afterward, what we see indicates that the situation wouldn't have escalated (guy backing away).

    At 13 seconds, the "attacker" was a bout 1 or 2 feet away from the guy on the ground. At 16 seconds, before being shot, he's about 5 feet away. If the "attacker" was clearly backing away after seeing the gun, the "victim" can't be considered a victim anymore as he as the upper hand (a gun is often going to do that).
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I voted yes.

    To be clear, I would not have fired. I think that guy was not morally justified in firing. But he was legally justified.

    He was being aggressed by a far superior opponent (which in his case is just about everyone... he appeared extremely frail). He was (apparently) blindsided by this opponent (he didn't see him coming) and he reacted immediately (he didn't have time to assess whether his asailant was continuing the attack) as he has a right to do in defending his life.

    I do also believe that people who carry firearms ought to be held to higher expectations of conduct. Initiating a verbal confrontation over a parking space is not a worthy fight. While I think its reasonable to expect such a confrontation to stay verbal in civilized society, we don't really live in a civilized society anymore. He really should've just 'let it go.' If there were any legal shenanigans available to pull this guys CCW and force him to open carry, I would support it.

    But he was defending himself in accordance with the law.

    Initiating violence is and should never be justified.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  19. leaulauzon

    leaulauzon Active Member

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    You avoided everything that I said, even calling me a joker when you have no more evidence than I do and are arguing like I do. If I'm a joker, than you are too. Why do you feel the need to belittle people doing the same thing as you?

    And of course I agree with letting the justice system work... This has nothing to do with what I wrote.

    Let's see if we can agree on something.

    The man takes a couple of steps back once he sees the gun.

    Do you agree with that?

    So, do you think that you can shoot someone backing away by a couple of feet if that person pushes you on the ground? If so, what does it take in that situation for it to not ne okay to shoot? Or is it always okay to shoot someone who pushes you down?

    Let's say the guy who did the pushing turned around once he saw the gun. Would it have still be okay to shoot? What if he was 10 feet away instead of 5? I just want to know what you think is a "threat".
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  20. leaulauzon

    leaulauzon Active Member

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    b
    Initiating violence is never justified we all agree on that. It doesn't mean death is the appropriate punishment.

    The guy was backing away once he saw the gun, wasn't he? The guy on the ground was aggressed like you said (past tense).

    The other guy was a superior opponent physically, but once the gun is taken out, the guy on the ground becomes the superior opponent. Isn't it the whole point of a gun? At 14 seconds, the frail guy is by far the superior opponent and the attacker becomes frail and backs aways because he knows he's outmatched.

    Once that gun appears, I don't think t was necessary to shoot unless the bigger guy moved forward.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Well you seemed pretty certian tat you were correct, as if you could possibly know. Lol

    I said I dont have enough evidence to know for certian.

    There is a saying in my field. "Watch out for the ones that are certian, they'll get you killed."

    Well I'm not. I'm just making fun of how every one of these shootings seems never to need a trial and a jury because people on the internet know everything. Don't be a know it all and perhaps I won't mock you for it.

    Why, you already know the totality of the circumstances.

    Yes.

    Depends

    If the attacker is subdued, on the ground himself or running away. There could be other circumstances I didn't list.

    Depends

    Depends.

    A threat is anything that could cause serious bodily injury or death.
     
  22. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree. But like I said, the guy on the ground didn't have time to assess his attackers movements, nor was he legally obligated to do so (nor should he have been, ftr). He fired immediately.

    If he had fired 2 seconds later, I would call it homicide.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  23. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obvious lessons to be learned here, that's for sure.
     
  24. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes "pepper spray" works, and sometimes it does not. But when you've been assaulted and knocked to the ground, do you want to trust a "spray" to protect you? Not me. This is exactly the kind of thing that Stand Your Ground laws were meant to address.
     
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  25. SiNNiK

    SiNNiK Well-Known Member

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    I find it difficult to attribute any sense of predictability of a reasonable adult for shoving an old man down like that because of a verbal conflict, but you argue that I should take the predictable, reasonable reaction of an adult having a gun drawn on them of backing away into consideration when deciding whether or not the shooting was justified?

    He's already proven he is not reasonable or predictable and has no problems placing his hands on people in a violent manner, there's no way to tell if the violence being visited upon this old man was indeed over... People act crazy until the gun comes out and a lot of times there's no shots fired and people go their separate ways, it didn't work out like that this time.
     
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