"Hate Crime", and it's terrible implications

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by crank, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    emotions aren't actions.
    Only in proving the criminal act.
    Isn't that rather idiotic? Premeditated murder shouldn't be any better if you take fewer steps.
    that suggests that spouses who kill during an argument are less criminal than spouses who take a few more steps.

    I'm sorry but I can't agree with you. Murder is murder. I don't care why you did it that you did it that's a problem.
     
  2. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    We've been over all this a couple of times already, enough is enough. Investigators can (usually) determine motives for crimes after doing what they're paid to do - investigate and establish the facts. This includes facts relevant to the probable motivation of the accused based on witness testimony and other evidence collected as they go about they're. Secondly the perpetrator often reveals their motivation to their lawyer or other party pre-trial. Few people commit serious 'hate' crimes without first leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind them on their way if anyone bothers to look.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't believe any of the three had motives that the men themselves did not already admit they had.

    To me, they seemed pretty open and truthful in the courtroom and seemed genuine in their belief they had not done anything seriously legally wrong. (Even if you argue they were wrong)

    The question was, was it their fault for Arbery's death, or was it Arbery's fault? Or maybe even both their faults or no one's fault.
    And I don't think that's such a straightforward question to answer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
  4. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Its what the law says. I don't necessarily like it either but it is what it is tell 'the law' not me. That's how it works. And the reason a 'spontaneous' murder committed under stress is likely to receive a lesser sentence than a planned murder is the absence of premeditation. At law the degree of premeditation involved in a crime has a serious impact on sentencing.
     
  5. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Please don't take my quotes out of context. Thanks.
     
  6. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    if you feel that way why are you even talking to me. You had to interject with your opinion but don't agree with it.

    If you don't like that jump in a lake
     
  7. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Its not my 'opinion' its the F'ing L.A.W.

    I'm sorry if you don't like being confronted with the cold hard facts of life but that's just the way it is. Your lay opinion (or mine for that matter) is irrelevant. All that matters are the relevant statutes and legal precedent (case law). Between them they not you, decide what is and is not classified as a hate crime in your jurisdiction.

    Don't like it? Go get a degree in law and argue otherwise in court or failing that get yourself elected to the relevant State body and change things. Anything else is just whining.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
  8. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    what is? Point out where it says legally that hate is an emotion and therefore an action?
    but I'm not. You're just trying to make excuses for why certain crimes should be treated as worse based on how someone was feeling.

    That is in fact that isn't law it's just your opinion.
    you weren't talking about case law you were talking about what you thought hate was. That was entirely your opinion and has nothing to do with law or fact.
     
  9. Izzy

    Izzy Newly Registered

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    First 2 guys that popped up
     
  10. Izzy

    Izzy Newly Registered

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    At the time Georgia had no state Hate Crime laws so the Feds charged them.
    Georgia state has them now.
    I don't know if the feds step in only when a death is involved?

    iirc:
    James Fields
    Chauvin & co
    Some mass shooters......Emanuel Church, Asian Spas

    Were all charged with federal hate crimes.
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    I can only correct your ignorance by pointing you to the statute law where you live. Once again for the slow learners - hate crimes are defined in the relevant legislation. And in order to charge someone with a hate crime you have to meet certain objective measures set out in that legislation. A prosecutor has to make the call but the legislation sets out the proofs he or she has to meet and the evidential hurdles involved. Those are the facts. I can't change them and neither can you.

    And one more time 'hate' in this sense is not an emotion. People are not sent to jail for 'hating' they are sent to jail for committing certain acts that meet the statutory definition of a 'hate crime'. In common usage the term 'hate crime' is the colloquial name for a group of related crimes with a common denominator. (Even if some statutes actually include the term in the legislation.) It's facile to argue that hate i.e. the emotion is relevant to the debate.

    Lots of people get convicted of sex crimes i.e. the colloquial name for a set of sex related criminal offenses. That does not make having the desire for sex a crime (well I can't speak for you but for most people anyway).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
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  12. Izzy

    Izzy Newly Registered

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    Chauvin & co were charged by the feds with violating George Floyd's Civil Rights.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do realize that even if Georgia had hate crime laws at the time the incident happened, it would not be appropriate to charge any of those three men with it?

    I bet a lot of people are so idiotically stupid, or naive about the actual facts of the story, they do not realize this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hate crime laws are the one "crime" where emotions do matter.
    That's what makes them so stupid.
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is the most idiotic naive statement ever. Even if - in the totally hypothetical scenario - the Ku Klux Klan (they probably only have 400 serious members in the entire country, very likely less) were given complete absolute control of the government, they would not try to kill the black race. Relocate them, or reduce some of their civil rights, perhaps, but their main agenda has never been killing groups only for race and for no other factor. Someone even posted a thread a while back (can't find it now) demonstrating that historically about half the people they lynched were white.

    It's just amazing what some of you have been programmed to believe.
     
  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    no all you can do is shift the goal posts when you've been called out on something ridiculous that you said.

    I didn't agree with your dumb little comment about hate being an emotion and therefore an action and you just kind of abandoned that whole talking point and then went on the defensive pathetically.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    No they're not. It's when you can get a few extra years by claiming something that didn't happen happened.
     
  18. Ruger87

    Ruger87 Banned

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    Speaking in only partial truths. He wasn’t a jogger.
     
  19. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    I've shifted nothing.Re-read my posts because to date your responses seem to indicate you haven't really read any of them. And you must really must be living in an alternate reality if you don't believe that hate is an emotion. What I said was that there is a distinct difference between feeling an emotion (in this case hate) and acting upon that emotion. If you cant understand/see that difference I can't help you.

    One more time for the simple (or blind). The legal definition of 'hate crime' doesn't relate to the emotion 'hate'. Jurisdictional differences aside the legal definition of a hate crime relates to certain specific courses of conduct by the accused, and nothing else.
     
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    false you switched from talking about what hate was to ranting nonsensically about the law.
     
  21. Richard Franks

    Richard Franks Well-Known Member

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    Groups like the Ku-Klux-Klan, the Aryan Brotherhood and other kill because of their race. Don't be surprised if their goal is to make America white again.
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those are only prison gangs. That's a different situation.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Dude, I'm busy. Can you just supply the synopsis.
     
  24. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    *L*

    Yes, you seem terribly busy.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    The addition of the emotion changes nothing. It's like saying 'angry crimes', or 'envy crimes', or 'frustration crimes', or 'impatience crimes'. The CRIME still happened .. what the perp was emoting in that moment (or any other moment in his life) is both irrelevant and unknowable. Motives are a practical consideration in determining the likelihood of the individual having done the crime.
     

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