Healthcare--a right or not?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by WAN, Feb 23, 2017.

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  1. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    So, nebulous euphemisms must be used to describe your ideal system of governance because, if you use the correct words, there won't be any difference between it and what you criticize about what they want to use government for.

    To get to it being okay for "society" to do and have done to it what no individuals should do or have done to them, you wrote the words "utilizing a republican form of government", but there's nothing about a republic that turns taxation into a way to "willingly provide" anything. The words "utilizing a republican form of government" are just a nutshell for a bunch of hot air, just like "social contract" is a nutshell for a bunch of mystical bs when Kode writes it.
     
  2. slackercruster

    slackercruster Banned

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    Not a right.
     
  3. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    So you believe it is not a right. So are you comfortable watching someone dying in the street or at home in agony because they could not afford healthcare?
     
  4. Medieval Man

    Medieval Man Well-Known Member

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    Haha, I'm about as far as you can get ideologically from Kode.

    I agree with your statements here, which is why I stressed, "This is how it's supposed to work, anyway" along with pointing out how statists who are all in for Fed.com have bastardized our system of government. And while you might think my words were just 'hot air,' this is indeed what the founders envisioned.

    But if you'd like me to dumb it down a bit for you, I'd much rather see healthy young adults who could provide for themselves starve rather than having a dollar taken from my labor to support them. Same goes for healthcare. Yet for the truly needy elderly person, a veteran, for example, I don't mind helping out. Ideally, this would be done through various charities outside Fed.com, but I think realistically, we're well past the point of this being possible any longer.
     
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Is it access to water that's a right or water itself?
     
  6. Sampson Simpon

    Sampson Simpon Active Member

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    It should be. People should not be profiting off sick people. Denying treatment that kills them because its expensive. People are making billions of others pain and suffering.
     
  7. Sampson Simpon

    Sampson Simpon Active Member

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    that's the entire basis of a civilized country. People pay taxes, get a hell of a lot more in return for that. Some people pay more. I've never had to call the cops or fire department for help, why should I have to pay for someone else to be saved? Because that's necessary for a civilization. Everybody pays taxes and gets a hell of a lot more in return. Did you go to public school? I don't have kids, why should I pay for other people's education. people that don't own a car, why should they have to pay for roads? that's just how every country in the world works, and we get all the perks in a pretty secure country, with a good justice system, people there to help us when needed, protect us from bad guys and foreigners, provide sound infrastructure so companies can flourish and provide our good jobs to live a pretty decently, make sure our stores are packed with food and other necessities at all time.

    So please stop this stupid "make someone else pay for it" unless you've never once did anything that was funded by the government (which I'm pretty sure if you aren't living off the grid in the woods, you have) then it is just a completely moronic talking point. Everybody pays taxes in some way or another
     
  8. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    there are no natural right to anything because natural rights don't exist. Rights exist when society grants them. Healthcare is a right if we say it is.

    to argue wheter healthcare IS a right is pointless... instead you should argue about wheter it SHOULD be.

    my view is that, yeah why not. If some poor hobo gets badly injured, are we supposed to leave him to die? No, of course not. I guess that means healthcare (to an extent) is a right.
     
  9. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Well-Known Member

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    Access to healthcare is definitely a right. Demanding someone else pay for it, however, is not.
     
  10. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    It has been bastardized. Even in its purest form, though, the justification for it is the same as the justification socialists offer for theirs. It's not your words that are hot air, it's what turns out to be backing them up whenever anyone tries to present it. None of us have a right to take anything from anyone else to pay for anything we want, even protection. None of us can give something we don't have. So none of us can impart the right to tax. When taxation is rationalized, the hard premises needed to get to socialism are created.
     
  11. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    To talk about what society should say while denying that there exists any good other than what society says is self refuting nonsense.
     
  12. Medieval Man

    Medieval Man Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with this, however you're making quite a leap from taxpayers funding infrastructure and the military to providing healthcare for people.

    Where, in your estimation, does one's government stop? Is housing a right? Is a job of some sort a right? Or perhaps you might think taxpayers are responsible for providing food and clothing to healthy individuals?

    As I said, a civil society via a representative form of government will tax its citizens for many things. But healthcare shouldn't be one of them; it's simply a service provided by a professional.

    Or perhaps you think the government should provide a person with an accountant, or a web designer, at taxpayer expense?
     
  13. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    no it's not. society defined what's good. and society is the sum of individuals, so what is good is the average of what the people thinks is good. If this seems wierd to you... ask what else could you could possibly base it on? Some magical natural rights that you claim exist somehow? It's literally as silly as basing it of religion..
     
  14. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Do you have the 'right' to get your toilet unclogged? Do you have the right to have a smooth running car? If you have to pay for plumbers, mechanics, lawyers, & latte baristas, why should a doctor's or hospitals 'services' be free? Why should it be a right, but you have to pay for food, housing, & video games?
     
  15. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    no, I don't have a right to those (unless society decided I do, but I don't think they have) and nor should I because those things aren't comparable to (essential) healthcare. Seriously, I talk about a badly injured hobo getting free treatment, and you compare that to getting free coffee?... don't be stupid, it's not the same thing.

    but again, coffee could be a right... if society thought it should be.
     
  16. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Because we want it to be. It's that simple
     
  17. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If healthcare is a right, then everything is a right.

    Anything that requires another human to provide is not a right.

    Humans do not possess rights to compel another human to labor. period. end of discussion.
     
  18. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    If you take something away from people and it causes them to DIE...then yes...that something is a right
     
  19. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Uh.....free elementary education is a right
     
  20. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    Of course it is not a right- it's not a natural resource; someone else has to get the education, construct the facilities, provide the equipment and people to provide health care. To say it is a right is to say that you are entitled to make someone else pay your bills. That means your "right" becomes a wrong on others.

    It is obvious that healthcare is vital and important for both people and a country. The way to make it more available is to get it's cost under control. It's been a runaway train for about 40 years, growing 5 times faster than other expenses. This is not the cost of actual care as much as it is regulation, litigation and insurance. An obstetrician can have malpractice insurance bills as high as $200,000 per year, and they are required to carry it. At the same time, lawyers are now on TV saying that if anything went wrong while you were under a doctors care, call us and let us get some of the money we can sue them for. IF we treated medical care more rationally- it would be vastly less expensive (As it is in most all other nations) and therefore far more affordable.

    Imagine that we used the same standard that lawyers apply to medicine on legal services and lawyers- if anything goes wrong, we sue them for malpractice and clean out their bank accounts.
    They have far more control over outcomes than doctors do, it would be fair to expect perfect performance. I think that is the "Right" we need to put in place.
     
  21. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Nah....just make it a right like most civilized countries
     
  22. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Uh...no it's not.
     
  23. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    SCOTUS disagrees with you. Several times. Lol
     
  24. Sampson Simpon

    Sampson Simpon Active Member

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    We need this because it is having a huge impact on our economy and people's lives. We spend a huge amount of our GDP so insurance companies, hospitals, drug companies, etc can make profits off sick and dying people. All that money wasted in all the redundant administrations, paperwork, bureaucracy, and profits to people. People are avoiding healthcare for the expense, or so desperate to live they are being inundated with debt for life that is holding them back from flourishing. The negative effects of not doing anything has real impacts. Considering how much money goes to healthcare in this country, this needs to change.

    If we had universal healthcare like most every other industrialized country, we would be healthier, more productive, not get bankrupted by medical bills keeping them forever in debt and possibly needing even more government asssitance. Yeah, we'd have to pay more taxes, well worth having a better quality of life.

    And our government does spend money on housing, not making it a right, but providing low income housing and other things to help those that are homeless.

    And this healthcare issue doesn't just effect the poor, but even middle class people. Insurance can be overbearing. medical bills can pile up. And this is getting worse and worse.

    That's why it should be treated as a right. But you know what's happening, all the people making billions are lobbying politicians to do nothing and selling propaganda on the news media they own, to brainwash people into thinking that its a bad idea and we can't or shouldn't do it. BS, our healthcare system is not the tops in the world, our quality of life is not either. it works in every industrialized country, regardless of the lies that go around trying to claim otherwise.
     
  25. JIMV

    JIMV Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How can anything be a 'right' that is provided using other folks money?
     
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