Herd immunity by April?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Bluesguy, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm happy. But I'm not a Dem and not a Republican.

    I do give credit. I did like it. I posted several times praising Trump for it. I'm perfectly aware of ALL the components of the Warp Speed initiative, in excruciating detail and I've posted about it, including, with each component listed, what they did, and who they supported (look up in my posting history my posts months ago about Warp Speed, by doing an Advanced search using Warp Speed as keywords and me as the author). I'm probably one of the posters here who knows best what WSI entailed.

    But no, Pfizer had absolutely nothing to do with it. Zero. They got their own funding (meaning, used their own money, 2 billion dollars). Pfizer is a company with a budget five times bigger than the total budget of Warp Speed Initiative (that is, all that Warp Speed did for ALL companies, Pfizer is five times bigger than that). They didn't want any help from Warp Speed, and plain declined it, including for distribution. They didn't want any strings attached. Their German partner developed the science (BioNTech). Pfizer provided the manufacturing and distribution capacity. Period. No WSI. At one point they considered, and even announced, that they would use WSI's distribution. Then they changed their mind again and used their own.

    People mix it up because in the WSI website there were news of the 1.95 billion contract with Pfizer. That was a PURCHASE ORDER. The contract was, if they came up with an approvable product, then they would be paid that amount to SELL 100 million doses of the vaccines to us (by now we've ordered another 200 million, 100 million by Trump and 100 million by Biden). That's not a cost-sharing grant to expedite R&D and manufacturing, unlike the case of Moderna and Johnson and Johnson (and AstraZeneca). That is simply a reservation. It's like, you call a very fancy restaurant, and say "I want a table." They say "We can reserve a table for you. We only practice multi-course menus and it is $500 per person. So if you get to our table for four, we'll charge you $2,000 once you get here. Do you still want the table?" You say "I do" and they say "then it's reserved for you. You pay when you get here." So up to you actually getting there to consume the meal, you're not paying anything. But once the meal is delivered, then you pay. That's not a grant to support the restaurant, or a donation. You are not trying to help the restaurant get the ingredients from the market and hire sous-chefs to cook the food. What you are doing is that you are paying for the completed and finished meal once they serve it to you. You're paying for the food, not for developing the recipe, etc. The 1.95 billion was to pay for the doses that they reserved for us, in case they got approval and delivered the doses (no money exchanged hands before that, unlike what happened for Moderna, J&J, AstraZeneca, and Novavax).

    Now what do you suppose they'd have done if we hadn't reserved those doses? They would have sold them to someone else. There are HUNDREDS of interested countries. Same thing, if you cancelled your restaurant reservation and the place was very much in demand, they'd sit someone else on that table, and they'd charge THAT person, not you. Understand the difference, now?

    The bottom line is, Pfizer never needed or wanted Warp Speed initiative and would have developed, manufactured, and distributed the vaccine in EXACTLY IN THE SAME INTERVAL OF TIME without the Warp Speed Initiative.

    Expediting the FDA process: that actually wasn't done. The FDA took exactly the same time it always takes when it's a matter of an Emergency Use Authorization. The time line you are quoting is for the regular, non-emergency full approvals, not the EUAs. The only concession is that the FDA said they'd want 2 months of safety data when it's usually 6 months for an EUA. But that's in function of the emergency of the pandemic, and they'd have done the same without the Warp Speed Initiative.

    And see, the other agencies around the world that have nothing to do with the WSI also expedited it. Actually we weren't even the first country that approved the Pfizer vaccine: the United Kingdom was.

    Now let's look at Pfizer and the various components of the Warp Speed Initiative as listed by you:

    Real Time Review of the Data and trial results vs waiting for them to be submitted at the end of the trials and the FDA taking a year to review and approve - Not true. The FDA only looked at Pfizer's data once Pfizer submitted the full set in November. They did NOT do a rolling review of the Pfizer data like the European Medicines Agency did. And no, it's not one year for an EUA. But yes, the FDA did decrease the time for safety data, but that was a decision in function of the seriousness of the pandemic and had nothing to do with the WSI.

    Funding Support for R&D - Not a single cent of WSI funds went to Pfizer to support R&D. The Feds offered but Pfizer declined.

    Department of Defense logistics for help with manufacturing, delivery and tracking. - Pfizer passed on all of that, too, and did their own distribution. They used their own cold shipping boxes and their own trucks. The Feds offered the McKesson distribution network that is part of the WSI. Pfizer said, "thanks but no thanks, we have our own distribution infrastructure and network." Moderna did accept that help and Johnson and Johnson I believe will use them too.

    Allowed for manufacturing during the approval process to have millions of doses ready to go in January. - No, that's cost-sharing. WSI did enable Moderna to do it. They did help Oxford/AstraZeneca with that. With cost sharing, companies are not afraid of producing ahead of approval because it's been supported by the grant so they won't go bankrupt if the vaccine fails. That was one of the BEST aspects of the WSI and one that lay people don't understand when they say the vaccines were too hushed. No, the bulk of the time-saving came from that, because companies usually are very careful and proceed step by step to see the viability of a product before committing to production. With cost-sharing, no need for that and you can rush it. But there was no cost-sharing with Pfizer. Pfizer has such a HUGE infrastructure that again and are so self-confident, that they were confident that they'd be able to manufacture in advance and not lose money, and did it, without the WSI.

    Come again? How was Pfizer part of the WSI??? Just because they sold us some doses? That's the extent of their involvement with the feds: as sellers. Period, full stop.

    "Every one that the FDA has approved was in the WSI" you say. The FDA has only approved three: Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J. The last two were in the WSI. Pfizer wasn't.

    Maybe the lefties were crying. I'm not a leftie. I was not crying. I understand the WSI, I'm for it, but I'm just saying, let's not attribute to it what it didn't do. It did nothing for the Pfizer vaccine - not because it didn't want to, but because Pfizer passed.

    Now, pray tell, what do the Sputinik V, the CoronaVac, the Sinopharm Beijing, the Cansino, the Vector, the Covaxin, the Curevac, and the Sinopharm Wuhan have to do with the Warp Speed Initiative??? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. These are in other countries and they didn't take a cent of American money and have nothing to do with American support for R&D, distribution, etc. Still, they produced viable vaccines JUST AS FAST. What I'm saying is that WSI wasn't the only game in town.

    But yes, Moderna, Johnson and Johnson, Novavax, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Inovio, and Sanofi/GSK did have to do with WSI. These were the six companies selected by the WSI for support. The last two are not in play (Inovio very delayed, Sanofi withdrew their product). Four of them did get finished (or almost for Novavax; they're about to finish). Moderna and J&J are the two success stories. Novavax only used WSI partially (they got a lot of money from WSI, I believe 1.6 billion, but had a tone of other funding too, including by the Gates foundation, and international consortiums). Oxford/AstraZeneca did use the WSI too (and also had other funding, by the Brits), much more significantly, and their vaccine is kind of lousy and hasn't even been approved here. So maybe we helped them for nothing. We'll see. They may still recover if they tweak their vaccine.

    Now, what not many know is that the WSI also helped Eli Lilly and Regeneron in their monoclonal antibodies. It wasn't just vaccines. They helped companies that make test kits, too, and others that produce raw materials. And they did put together a distribution network with McKesson, and support for manufacturing (down to getting our domestic glass company Corning to increase the production of special glass for the vials with another grant).

    But ALL of the above, Pfizer declined. They did not want and did not take any support from WSI.

    Whoever told you differently, lied to you. Here, hear it from the mouth of Pfizer's CEO and Pfizer's vice president:

    Albert Boula the CEO, explaining why he declined Warp Speed's help:

    “The reason why I did it was because I wanted to liberate our scientists from any bureaucracy,” Bourla explained. “When you get money from someone that always comes with strings. They want to see how we are going to progress, what type of moves you are going to do. They want reports. I didn’t want to have any of that. I wanted them — basically I gave them an open checkbook so that they can worry only about scientific challenges, not anything else.” “And also,” he added, “I wanted to keep Pfizer out of politics, by the way.”

    Pfizer's vice-president Kathrin Jansen on this:

    “We were never part of the Warp Speed,” “We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”

    Pfizer used 2 billion dollars of their own money for their Covid-19 vaccine R&D.

    Source for all of the above is here, but behind a paywall, sorry:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...-is-not-function-trumps-operation-warp-speed/

    Unlike Pfizer, Warp Speed gave $456 million to Johnson & Johnson, $483 million to Moderna (and more, later), $1.2 billion to AstraZeneca, and $1.6 billion to Novavax. These were grants, not vaccine purchases. Later, the Feds also got into purchase agreements with all four, contingent to approval (like I said, AstraZeneca's hasn't been approved yet and Novavax hasn't even finished all their trials yet - but will, soon).

    But not Pfizer.
     
  2. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Herd immunity was here months ago in certain locations, rendering the injection unnecessary.

    Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.
     
  3. hawgsalot

    hawgsalot Well-Known Member

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    There is not one single vaccine today that did not get FDA approval based on Operation Warp Speed FDA Approval rules. No vaccinne did all their studies, tests, clinical trials then submitted to the FDA for review like has been done in the past. That's why dems were saying it's 2 years minimum. Trump and congress relaxed the rules to include:

    Step by step approval and real time result examination vs waiting until the end like has always been done.
    They didn't receive R&D funding because they wanted control of their product once developed but they did get a 2billion dollar contract in July 5 months before approval guaranteeing them sales, that's called splitting hairs.
    They received DOD logistics to deliver the product.

    To downplay operation warp speed with them is just ignorant. They wouldn't have approval today without it. They had 2b in operation warp speed sales 2 months after they started developing it and they had operation warp speed logistics through the DOD. Sorry my friend the only thing they didn't do was accept R&D money so America couldn't control their product once developed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  4. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

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    You call me ignorant (thanks for the personal attack; you do you and keep doing that; I won't do this in retaliation) and you continue to propose fantasies.

    1. No, like I said, (I'll use caps for emphasis, I'm not yelling) THERE WAS NO ROLLING REVIEW OF PFIZER DATA!!! NONE!!! Don't you remember Trump precisely complaining that Pfizer only released the data one week after the election? Why do you keep insisting that there was rolling review? There simply wasn't. Pfizer submitted the full data in one set, once, and the FDA then took 3 weeks reviewing it and ended up approving it after the Brits did. "No vaccine did all their studies, tests, etc. then submitted to the FDA" etc., you're saying? Who the hell told you that??? That's precisely what Pfizer did. Actually the WH kept pressuring them for releasing their data and they kept saying "we haven't reached the endpoint, we can't release." And didn't. Who the hell told you that they did? Care to provide a source???

    2. There is no "Warp Speed FDA approval rules." The FDA is not part of the Warp Speed initiative. What existed was pressure from the White House for the FDA to approve a vaccine before November 3rd, which the FDA refused to do. The FDA like I said did shrink from 6 months of safety data after the second dose of the candidate vaccines, to two months, and the White House didn't want that; people like me (a member of the scientific community) complained out loud and then the WH relinquished and the FDA conserved the 2 months, not before a memorandum by 9 of the vaccine makers saying that they ALSO thought that a minimum of 2 months was needed. If you think that THIS is what you are calling "Warp Speed FDA approval rules" there is no such thing; there was undue political pressure. But the rules for approval are the same: a safety and efficacy review by an ad-hoc committee, the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee, which operates under standard rules. The FDA set the threshold for approval at 50% efficacy which is pretty standard. You're calling me ignorant... it's interesting, since I do this for a living for the last 40 years.

    3. People thought it would take two years because they didn't take into account that the technology for mRNA vaccines built upon ten years of previous research and was ripe for the taking. But yes, Warp Speed accelerated it significantly for many companies... but NOT for Pfizer.

    4. Pfizer did not use WSI distribution network. Again, you're misinformed.

    5. The sales contract - pretty standard. That's how Pfizer is selling to all other countries that do not have a Warp Speed Initiative. That you mix up the two things, it's on you, not on me. Pfizer had a contract to sell reserved doses IF their vaccine was successful, contingent to approval. If the vaccine had failed they'd have lost all their R&D and production money. So that's not cost-sharing.

    6. I'm not downplaying Warp Speed. It's just that unlike you, I know what it did and what it didn't.
     
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  5. hawgsalot

    hawgsalot Well-Known Member

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    Your buying the company line. The Pfizer vaccine RAW MATERIALS Logistics were indeed secured through the DOD through operation warp speed. The FDA has never in it's history approved of a vaccine in two years after submission, operation warp speed. The 2 billion dollar Operation Warp Speed order before it was even developed helped pay for development don't kid yourself. You are buying a company line that is trying to be the big kid on the block in a competitive market.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2027405https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/...-of-the-governments-operation-warp-speed.htmlhttps://www.cbc.ca/news/health/operation-warp-speed-trump-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-1.5806820https://www.npr.org/sections/health...y-contract-excludes-many-taxpayer-protections
     
  6. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thought you said you were healthy?
     
  7. mentor59

    mentor59 Well-Known Member

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    you have no clue what you are talking about

    i will not even bother to reply because you are a Trumper and as such facts are meaningless

    we need to address the trumper problem, a country cannot survive with such creatures
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  8. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

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    First, it's not "your buying the company line" - it's "you're."
    Second, I don't buy any company line. I work as a professional in this field. I know what I'm talking about (unlike you). The one thing you're right about is that AFTER the development, approval, etc., Pfizer did run into some trouble with raw materials, briefly, and the government did help. That didn't affect the speed of development though (which is how this discussion started), since it happened weeks after the vaccine was already approved and distributed.
    Third, as the other user here said, facts don't seem to matter to you. As such, I lost patience.
    Fourth, you're thoroughly misinformed. It's not me who is buying "the company line." It's you who are buying Trump's attempt to take credit for the Pfizer vaccine (I don't mind him taking credit for J&J and especially Moderna, but not Pfizer). As such, I lost patience. Won't be responding to you any longer. Have a nice life. Over and out.
     
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  9. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, kind of surprising. That took me aback too. I tried my best to convince this poster to accept the vaccine, apparently to no avail. He has one thousand reasons to need it (but his doctor doesn't seem to be doing a great job of explaining to him the HUGE benefits and the VERY SMALL risks, so I tried, as a matter of public health advocacy - which is THE main reason I post here - but when people have their minds set, it's very hard to influence that - I keep trying, though. Success rate is meager).
     
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  10. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Egads. Take a look at the summary of covid vaccine development...

    https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccin

    Operation Warp Speed is only part an international effort to develop covid vaccines. As usual, Trump is trying to take credit for something others have done.
     
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  11. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thanks for posting. I knew of Russia's Vector Institute peptide vaccine EpiVacCorona but I didn't know the Russians have still a third one, Chumakov's CoviVac inactivated vaccine. It's interesting how the Russians approve their vaccines, LOL. Always ahead of phase 3. Bold people.

    So, there are 12 approved. I listed 13, considering that Novavax and CureVac/GSK are pretty close. With the Chumakov one I should have listed 14 if I knew of it. And yes, there are countless other candidates but at one point this will start to fizzle as it won't be easy to find volunteers for the trials (having approved vaccines becomes a competition against the trials).

    Again, it is interesting that of these 14 frontrunners only 4 are linked to Operation Warp Speed. Trump loyalists, though, assume that without OWS we wouldn't have had timely vaccines. We would... just, they would have been different ones. We'd have had Pfizer, of course, and would have bought more from other sources. The most likely second source that would sell to us, would be the Covaxin since India is a country that is sympathetic to the US, unlike Russia or China.

    But anyway, I'm grateful that we do have Moderna and J&J and these two definitely did benefit from OWS.

    Consulting funding sources in your link, people will learn of something I highlighted as well in my State of the Vaccines thread: CEPI, which is a sort of international equivalent of the Warp Speed initiative. They helped Novavax too.

    And on the topic of the recent discussions in this thread, if we click on the plus sign in your link for the Pfizer/BioNTech and go to funding, we get still another confirmation that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had nothing to do with Operation Warp Speed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  12. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, the Plandemic was truly a world wide event, thanks to the sick bastards at World Economic Forum. Sick bastards including mad scientists and bureaucrats.
     
  13. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Reckless people?
    I saw Derrick Rossi on tv last week..


    The guy looks like he's still on a "high" about his chance to contribute to covid vaccine development. I'm grateful, too, for vaccines already saving lives in my community where nursing home infections are now near zero.
    Exactly.
     
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  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    I suppose we should take your word for it? :roll:
     
  15. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-3-3_10-15-50.gif
    Centerfield?

    Even if @hawgsalot isn't paying attention, some of us are.

    Thanks.
     
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  16. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I was healthy until December, when I got a kidney stone and an UTI. No idea how that came about, but I notoriously drink too little. That could have contributed to the malady.
    My heart issue I inherited from my Dad, including blood clots. It didn't make me feel ill. That was more or less a mechanical thing, and after cleaning out my main artery and putting me on oxygen, I was ready for the Olympics!! That was more than ten years ago and I have managed to outlive my Dad by eight years already!! Neither he nor I ever smoked nor drank throughout our lives. It's all in the genes! Yes, the GENES...
    my 95yr old neighbor still plows his drive- and runway, flies his little two-seater plane and manages his life all on his own!! He is a RAF veteran!

    I'm doing o.k. again now, just need to get in shape after the winter months. Am looking forward to my garden and all the many flowers to tend to. Hopefully, my daughter will be able to hang out here with me for a bit and help me plant some wild wine along the new fence. First we have to find some run-away plants around the neighborhood.

    Thanks, Sallyally, for your interest. May you be blessed and avoid all the nasty little illnesses that creep up on us when we are not watching. :banana:
     
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  17. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hope you continue to thrive.
     
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  18. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Only if you're capable of independent and critical analysis of the facts.
     
  19. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, sure--I should take your word for it.
     
  20. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, you should study the facts and evidence, apply critical thinking, and reach your own conclusions.

    But you won't, because you need an authority figure to tell you how to think and what to conclude.
     
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  21. Starcastle

    Starcastle Well-Known Member

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    The China bioweapon has been good for the democrat party. They never want it to end. The hope is to keep people shackled at least until the 2022 elections and if they could forever. Mail in voting and oppressive lock downs serve them well.

    Poor senile Joe craping himself at the thought of masks being voluntary and not mandated.

    Of course mandates only apply to the commoners right Joe?

     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  22. Starcastle

    Starcastle Well-Known Member

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  23. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    You lecturing about thinking for yourself? Hohhhh-Kayyyyy...
     
  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Ol' Joe keeps ridin' down the middle while you guys attack from wayyyy out there on the right.
     
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  25. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    We're going to end up wearing masks as fashion accessories like the Koreans and Japanese. We'll also keep the social distance and fistbumps. I never did like standing up close to people and hated the forearm strength contests people call handshaking.

    Lots more work at home, other things too but no real changes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021

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