Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis - Norman Humility

Discussion in 'New World Order' started by WJV, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. WJV

    WJV Banned

    Jul 30, 2016
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    As an Anglo-Norman Australian I am very interested in Norman history. In my opinion all Teutonic peoples have great histories and together our collective history every bit as great as the history of Southern Europeans or North Africans. For me it is strange that the modern Teutonic culture adopts and celebrates the history of Southern Europeans and North Africans more than our own great history. In my opinion the Teutonic people have always possessed a proud culture and history that is not inferior to that of the Roman, Greek or Egyptian histories but unique like that of all cultures.

    Of course as a Teuton I am proud of my own history. I agree that in the past it has been common and healthy for nations and peoples to consider themselves to be the best and that this egoism has helped drive human progress. I also agree that it is manifestly untrue that any one group of people is superior to another.

    -Jack London/Daughter of the Snow

    The way that the Teuton were treated by the Romans as inferior barbarians helped to motivate the Teuton. In psychology a superiority complex is most often rooted in an underlying inferiority complex. The Teutonic ego could not accept that Germanic people were inferior to Romans in any way and this helped to motivate the Teuton to destroy Roman authority and to make our own conquests. War and conquest are a part of human history and have contributed to the progress of civilization. The egoism of people of a shared identity has created competition and this competition has helped the human race to advance.

    -Jack London/Daughter of the Snow

    I agree with those that are advocating for cultural humility in the Asian Century. Of course there is nothing wrong with people of a shared identity being proud of their history and culture but it is no longer acceptable in modern times for one nation to claim to be superior to others. The idea of American exceptionalism does not belong in the Asian Century and I have been happy to see US politicians beginning to show more cultural humility on the global stage.

    One of the proudest features of Norman history was the cultural humility that Norman conquerors possessed. It was not in the nature of the Norman to force Norman culture on a conquered people like so many other expansionist peoples. A good example of Anglo-Norman humility is that the Norman invasion and conquest of England and the Anglo-Saxon resulted in assimilation with theNormans considering themselves first as Anglo-Norman and then over time the majority of Anglo-Normans identified as being English.

    The conquered Anglo-Saxon wealthy suffered great loss of wealth and 'freedom' due to the great Norman Domesday Book which was a survey of the new Norman Kings wealth in England. The Domesday Book was also known as The Book of the Treasury and it was carried out so that William the Conqueror could maximize revenue from taxation and rents. The Domesday Book was/is associated with the Judeo-Christian religions Biblical Day of Judgement because of the finality of the decisions. There was no appeal. The Domesday Book was a significant Norman accomplishment and a great example of Anglo-Norman contribution to civilization in the areas of state power/control, taxation, public record keeping, valuation of national assets, valuation of national resources, and law/political structure.

    “for as the sentence of that strict and terrible last account cannot be evaded by any skilful subterfuge, so when this book is appealed to … its sentence cannot be put quashed or set aside with impunity. That is why we have called the book ‘the Book of Judgement’ … because its decisions, like those of the Last Judgement, are unalterable. (Richard FitzNigel, 1179)

    Now despite the fact that the Anglo-Saxon were conquered and ruled by the Anglo-Normans the two peoples were able to overcome differences and conflict to come together. The Normans were Romanized Galeo-Franks. A shared Teuton nation of Gaul and Viking stock. When the Normans invaded the Saxons the conquering Normans had a very different tongue having embraced the romance language of France after settling in Normandy. The invading Normans also had very different institutions.

    One thing the two people did share in common was that both Normans and Saxons were Catholic unlike the Danish Pagan Viking invaders that invaded the Britons earlier. The Britons were left to look to their own defenses with the decline and fall of Roman authority and of course they were invaded by the Danes. The Danish Vikings had a similar tongue and culture to the Sub-Roman-Britain but they were Pagan unlike the Roman Catholic Romanized Galeo-Frank Normans. So when the Saxons invaded the Motherland the Britons became Saxons but when the Normans invaded the Motherland the Saxons and the Normans came together as one to identify as English,

    Another example of Norman humility is the Norman conquest of Anglo-Celtics.


    The Anglo-Norman conquered the Anglo-Celtics with ease. The Song of Dermott and the Earl tell of between 3000 and 4000 being defeated by no more than 100 English.


    While the Norman conquest of Ireland was ruthless the Normans did debate the morality of what they were doing as well as the risks.

    I have a very good book called By Sword and Fire that was written by Sean McGlynn. The book talks about the moral and military dilemma that the Norman conquerors faced between mercy and ruthlessness, between the dictates of humanity and the expediencies of war. The Norman invaders debated questions such as - "Should a vanquished opponent be considered a non-combatant?"

    Gerald of Wales's account of the Norman invasion- The Conquest of Ireland includes a debate between Normans -- Raymond and Hervey on the dilemma between mercy and ruthlessness.

    Raymond is saying that these defeated Irish are honourable men because they have tried to defend their country.Raymond says 'they are not thieves, seditious, traitors or robbers'. He says ' they have been defeated by us while defended their country', which is 'assuredly an honourable vocation. He argues that the Irish are fellow 'human beings' that should be shown mercy and says that to inflict cruelty, torture and death upon them would 'bring infamy and shame upon us, and would considerably damage our reputations'. Raymond also says that it would be more sensible and noble to ransom the vanquished. He then argues that if the Normans show mercy to Irish captives then perhaps the Irish will show mercy to Normans that might fall into the hands of the Irish.

    Hervey mocks Raymonds stance- 'as if any foreign country has been conquered by acts of mercy rather than by fire and slaughter!' Hervey argues that enemy races do not submit to clemency but ' rather bowed their necks in submission under the compulsion of armed might and terror bred of cruel treatment. While peoples are still proud and rebellious they must be subdued by all possible means and clemency must take a backseat'. Hervey accuses Raymond of having 'criminal compassion' and bent on 'increasing the number of enemies'. Hervey says how unsafe it is to keep large numbers of captives and concludes that ruthlessness is needed to put fear in the hearts of the Irish saying prisoners must be executed so 'that the deaths of these men may inspire fear in others, and as a result of the example we make of them this lawless and rebellious people may shrink from engaging our forces in the future'.

    Hervey won and the Norman executions of the discomforted Irish put terror into the Irish population. The Normans decided on ruthlessness over mercy for the conquered Anglo-Celtics. ( I am getting to the humility ) The Norman invasion of Ireland helped the nation to mature and form its own identity and national unity. Before the Norman invasion of Ireland the Normans had made excursions into Wales and many of the occupying Normans that followed the initial conquerors were from Wales and considered by some to have been 'Cambro-Normans'. Norman culture is romantic and Normans have not been a people that have tried to force Norman culture on to conquered people. One of the great things about Norman culture is that it is so multicultural due to the Normans always being willing to learn where they can and always being open to new and better ideas. There are many influences on Norman culture and many of those influences are drawn from the people that the Normans conquered.

    Roman poet, Ovid said that we can learn, even from our enemies. I agree with this and in my opinion Norman culture embraces this thought and takes it further in demonstrating that it is right to learn, even from the conquered. Victi vincimus was also something that Normans never forgot and never failed to take into consideration. As a ruling class the Normans were certainly not known for showing criminal compassion to the people that they conquered but in my opinion the Norman resistance to sentimentality in regard to enforcing their authority was a quality of strong Norman leadership that ensured security, order and stability. This Norman vigilance against criminal compassion helped reduce class conflict and unavoidable initial resentment felt by the people the Normans conquered. The strong rule of the Normans helped the conquered to accept Norman authority The Normans knew how to win but after the Normans had gained victory they were always good winners.

    In my opinion Norman culture contributes many great things to civilization and the cultural humility that Normans possessed is something that we can draw on in modern times. Of course it is still fine for people to be proud of their nation of origin but the global community has become interdependent and it has also matured. The blind passions that have been associated with Nationalism in the past only lead to conflict. New Nationalism in modern times must include national humility. In modern times it is impossible to look at any one political, social or economic issue on purely a national/domestic level. The interdependence of the global community means that we all rely on each other and we all have a responsibility to remain compatible with the global economy. We all know that isolation is a dead end street and also that it is important to have stability and security for each and every economy of the global community. If nations put sanctions on each other this can hurt not only the people living in those nations but also innocent investors that have their investments put at risk due to nationalistic blind passion. Old Nationalism is counter productive and can lead to boomerang effect economic consequences. The modern political class is guilty of passionate nationalism and this passion causes dishonest thinking and dishonest decisions.

    George Orwell wrote an interesting essay titled - Notes on Nationalism. In this essay Orwell gives his various opinions on Nationalism. Part of the essay touches on the problem of passionate Nationalism causing a distortion of reality.

    - George Orwell/Notes on Nationalism.

    The indifference to reality that Orwell speaks of is still present in modern times. Still today actions are often held as good or bad not on their merits but on National Interest. Reprehensible deeds often occur or do not occur depending on National interests. It is not uncommon for both the East and the West allow national interest to cloud the truth even in modern times.

    The time has come for a leaders to embrace a modern cooperative nationalism that transcends blind loyalty and embraces honesty and the truth. Economic harmony needs to become a priority for the global community because it is trade and material wealth building that hold the solutions to the alleviation of global poverty and the continued advancement of civilization. The jingoism and emotion of old style nationalism must be seen for what it is and that is dishonest. The truth is that each and every national economy of the global community is important. To achieve economic harmony it is important that international diplomacy is fair and honest. National interests should never cloud the truth.

    To achieve global economic harmony I believe that the global community must look to avoid economic conflict. Discontent exists within the justice seeking nations of the NAM Alliance and there also seems to be a desire from the BRICS nations to be given more respect. The West seems to be feeling threatened and insecure. I think that each nation seeks to feel respected and valued and this is an important diplomatic consideration.

    The Norman were very good at conflict reduction. The avoidance of criminal compassion was key to Norman success in establishing authority and maintaining order. The cultural humility offered by Norman leadership was key in achieving harmony and often assimilation.

    If there is a thing we can learn from Norman culture that jumps out at you -- it is that we can learn from each other. We are all unique and we all have our own unique qualities and even our differences can bring us together and make us better.

    Norman art highlights the Norman quality of embracing new ideas and using them to create something new and unique. Norman architecture incorporated elements of early Roman and Byzantine buildings while at the same time including local traditions. Romanesque or Norman Architecture was the first distinctive style to spread across Europe after the fall of Roman authority. In Italy the Normans incorporated elements of Islamic, Lombard and Byzantine architecture into their own. The word Romanesque means "descended from Rome." The Dark Ages caused a break in the advance of civilization and Norman culture being heavily influenced by Rome was able to contribute significantly in so many areas due to knowledge gained from the Romans. The Normans did their best to fill the void and vacuum created with the fall of western Roman Empire.

    The name Normans means 'North Men'. Nortmannus.


    Norman visual arts also draw on many cultures. One form of art that was particularly important to Norman culture was tapestry. The most famous work of Norman art -- the Bayeux Tapestry -- was made with Nordic traditions embracing the Normans viking roots. Norman tapestry is central to Norman art the Nordic influence shows that Normans had great respect and pride in their Nordic ancestry despite their Galeo-Frank culture also being descended from Rome.

    Norman artwork in Southern France has been influenced by Greeks, Lombard and Arabs. Of the Norman royal regalia preserved in Palermo, the crown is Byzantine in style and coronation cloak is of Arab craftsmanship with Arabic inscriptions. The marriage of the East and West in the Norman royal regalia is a great example of Norman cultural humility and the romantic tendency of Normans to embrace and draw upon different cultures no matter how great the differences may seem. The Normans played a major political, military and cultural role in Medieval Europe but also in the Near East. Norman expansion extended to the Near East and contributed to the Eastern influence in Norman art and culture.

    Norman cultural humility is honest. The Normans were willing to learn from anyone that could make them better and the Normans were willing to embrace better ideas even if they came from an enemy or from the conquered. The Normans were able to control their egos and to appreciate the uniqueness of cultures different to their own. Few modern people identify as Anglo-Norman and the main reason is because the romantic Normans embraced conquered cultures and often assimilated into them. It has been said that the Normans that conquered Ireland became more Irish than the Irish themselves. Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis.

    The Geraldines


    These Geraldines! These Geraldines! -not long our air they breathed;
    Not long they fed on venison, in Irish water seethed;
    Not often had their children been by Irish mothers nursed;
    when from their full and genial hearts an Irish feeling burst!
    The English monarch strove in vain, by law, and force, and bribe,
    To win from Irish thoughts and ways this 'more than Irish' tribe;
    For still they clung to fosterage, to breitheamh, cloak and bard:
    What king dare say to Geraldine, 'Your Irish wife discard'?

    The cultural assimilation in Norman Ireland and in other places visited by the Normans is in some ways similar to what George Orwell would describe as Transferred Nationalism. The Anglo-Celtics were very proud of the fact that their Norman conquerors had fallen in love with the Irish and embraced Anglo-Celtic culture while influencing it at the same time. In my opinion this is a very early example of Positive Nationalism. As I mentioned above the Norman conquest of Ireland helped the Anglo-Celtics to form a sense of national identity and true unity. Romantic nineteenth century Irish nationalists used the phrase -- "more Irish than the Irish" to promote common Irishness. The Irish respected the Normans and the Normans respected the Irish. The two became one just like in England.

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  2. WJV

    WJV Banned

    Jul 30, 2016
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    I think that we in modern times can learn from and draw on Norman Cultural Humility to help us create a more honest and stable global economy. I think that our modern global leaders would gain if they displayed a strong and consistent leadership like the rule of the Normans. Modern leaders would also gain in my opinion if they possessed the Norman ability to influence as well as embrace.

    The North Men of Normandy are one of many proud Teutonic cultures. The word Teuton is a broad term that refers to all peoples of the Germanic origin. The Teutones were an early Germanic tribe mentioned by Greek and Roman authors that were defeated by the Roman Republic. According to Roman authors the king of the Teutones -- King Teutobod -- was taken in irons by the Romans and 300 married Germanic women were to be taken as Roman slaves. Germanic virtue compelled the Teutone women to murder their own children before strangling each other to death. The Mass Suicide of the Teutone Women passed into Roman legends of Germanic Heroism.

    Early Romans agreed that the pagan Germanic, Gaul and Spanish tribes shared a somewhat collective religion, culture and ethnicity. For me the broad term Teuton includes the early people of Gaul and Northern Spain as all were 'Germanic'. An interesting thing about the men from the North is that there is evidence that early Russians were described as "Rus Men" and linked to the viking men of the North.

    The Muslim diplomat and traveller Ahmad ibn Fadian, who visited Volgo Bulgaria in 922, described the Rus' (Rusiyyah) in terms said to suggest Norsemen:

    I have seen the Rus as they came on their merchant journeys and encamped by the Itil. I have never seen more perfect physical specimens, tall as date palms, blond and ruddy; they wear neither tunics nor caftans, but the men wear a garment which covers one side of the body and leaves a hand free. Each man has an axe, a sword, and a knife, and keeps each by him at all times. The swords are broad and grooved, of Frankish sort. Each woman wears on either breast a box of iron, silver, copper, or gold; the value of the box indicates the wealth of the husband. Each box has a ring from which depends a knife. The women wear neck-rings of gold and silver. Their most prized ornaments are green glass beads. They string them as necklaces for their women.
    —Gwyn Jones, A History of the Viking

    As for the Rus, they live on an island ... that takes three days to walk round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; it is most unhealthy. ... They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they carry them off as slaves and…sell them. They have no fields but simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands. ... When a son is born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand; throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you with any property: You have only what you can provide with this weapon."
    —Ibn Rustah

    The name Rus comes from Old Norse meaning "the men who row". I would tend to agree with the theories that suggest the Russian -- like the Normans -- are viking stock and men from the North. For me a Russian is a Teuton.

    It is very interesting to think that the men from the North have always united the East and West in a sense. In modern times the differences between East and West must be overcome in the name of economic harmony, political stability and peace. A new Nationalism that values and displays cultural nobility is the type of nationalism that we need going forward. I like the Indonesian motto of Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, or "Unity in Diversity". Another positive meme that I appreciate is the Australian motto of "We are one, but we are many". I think this kind of multicultural feeling needs to be embraced by the global community as a whole.

    Of course we should all be proud of our own histories and cultures but we should never allow our egos to come between friendship and honest diplomacy. I believe that Nationalism is a good thing but now that we have such an interdependent global community it is wrong to allow political conflict to damage our economies in any way. Every nation of the global community has value and the path to economic harmony lies in leaving behind the old Nationalism of the past and replacing it with a new modern Nationalism that is mature and honest. Isolation is a dead end road and it is important to have an inclusive global economy.

    The global community has very few major differences compared to the wealth that we all share in common. A modern Nationalism that embraces cultural humility will help the global community to political compatibility and economic harmony. In my opinion the world is mature enough to start moving to an accord that does not allow emotional national sentiment to blind judgement, distort reality and cloud the truth. The truth is that it is not in the national interest of any nation to be excluded from the global economy so we need to do more to work towards a world where the threat of economic sanctions is unthinkable. In my opinion strong consistent leadership and cultural humility is needed to help us to cooperation and a world where honest trade transcends one-eyed and emotional national sentiment.

    Essentially, cultural humility means understanding that all nations are unique and that even the most modest economy of the global community is capable of making contributions to advancing civilization and achieving economic harmony. We should all be willing to learn from each other and make gains wherever we find them.

    View attachment 45546

    As for the Chinese, they are permanent. All that the other races are not, the Anglo-Saxon, or Teuton if you please, is. All that the other races have not, the Teuton has. What race is to rise up and overwhelm us?"

    We are not God's, but Nature's chosen people, we Angles, and Saxons, and Normans, and Vikings, and the earth is our heritage. Let us arise and go forth!"

    -Jack London/Daughter of the Snow

    I think that part of Cultural Humility is having the ability to be honest and admit when you are wrong. War and violence are uncivilized and even though military conflict and competition has caused us to advance in the past we all understand that war is futile at the end of the day and only leads to more conflict. A cooperative nationalism should mean a cooperative competition. The world is a team now and sure we can compete because healthy competition is always good. The biggest threat facing the world is not the national militaries of national governments but terrorists. Every nation of the global community needs to understand that the global community is a team. In my opinion a cooperative competition is the way of the future.

    Epitoma Rei Militaris - Vegitus ( "if you want peace, prepare for war" )

    Of course we must all be willing to defend ourselves but in my opinion genuine war is over. With China and USA as superpowers nothing can be gained from world war. Trade and diplomacy are the future. In my opinion the war is over. It is just a matter of embracing strong leadership and cleaning up minor and regional conflict with stop gaps and a global economic accord.

    "There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." Sun Tzu/The Art of War.

    I admire many things about Jewish culture and I believe that Jewish people have contributed a wealth to civilization. In my opinion the time has come for Tikkun Olam.

    Tikkun Olan is a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world". ( or healing the world )

    I think we all agree that the world needs to be repaired and that means the alleviation of global poverty. The alleviation of global poverty is within our reach. Tikkun Olan is all about building a model society. It is in the interests of us all to work toward a noble society that every citizen can be proud of. Nothing can be gained from conflict.

    mip'nei tikkun ha-olam

    Ubi nunc est illa ferocia? Ubi semper infida mobilitas? - Eumenius

    Roman author and speech writer Eumenius at an execution of Frankish prisoners in the circus at Trier by Constantinople 1 in 306 said " Where now is that famed ferocity of yours, that ever untrustworthy fickleness?" 'Feroses' was often used to describe the Franks.

    Roman propaganda portrays the Teuton as fickle in nature. Julius Caesar goes to great lengths to highlight the fickleness and untrustworthiness of the Teuton 'barbarian' during the Gaelic Wars and it was always the Roman propaganda tactic to speak of the Teuton as being inferior.

    The Franks society evolved into Norman society and unlike the Gauls and Britons, the Germanic people were never conquered by Rome. The Germanic Teuton was never conquered by the Roman Empire even though Germania was so close to Rome. Unable to conquer the Germanic tribes the Rhine became the natural border of the Roman Empire.

    View attachment 45547

    Germania was never conquered by the Romans. The Franks were not conquered people so the Normans did not come from conquered people. The Roman propaganda that portrays Germanic people as being inferior to Romans is creative when you consider the fact that the Romans were always afraid of the Germanic Teuton and were never able to conquer them.

    Veni, Vidi, Vici is Roman propaganda that did not apply to the Germanic Teuton. Julius Caesar may have been able to conquer Gaul and Briton with divide and conquer but the Roman Empire came to a halt at the Rhine. Caesar understood that divide et impera would not defeat the people of Germania.

    An American propaganda phrase is "If it wasnt fior us you would all be speaking German." This USA likes to take all of the credit for the allied victory in WW2 even though they did not enter the war until late and despite the fact that Russia did so much to bring about the German defeat. The funniest thing about the American phrase is that English is a Germanic language. If not for the Teuton we would all be speaking Roman..

    View attachment 45548

    The English language is Germanic. The modern English language and modern German are both from the same family of languages and are Germanic. The English language borrows from Latin, French and Greek but it is Germanic. If the Romans had been able to conquer the Teuton people it is logical to think that the English language would not be as important as it has become.The word dollar comes from German Thaler — which in turn is short for Joachimsthaler, derived from a sixteenth-century silver mine in Joachimsthal, Germany.

    What the world really needs is a Vindex to emerge to rule over a New World Order and all people of earth and this New World Order must embrace Norman philosophy because the Normans knew how to rule over foreign and multicultural societies. We must forget this idea that Arabs for example must have an Arab leader to rule over them. Arabs liked Lawrence of Arabia didnt they? Arabs do not need a Arab to rule them and they can be made to obey a universal set of rules and laws that will be set down for all people of the human race.


    What are your ideas for our New World Order? Do you agree that the world needs a Vindex to rule over all people on earth?

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