Homeland Security chief says back-channel talks with Russia would be 'normal...and acceptable'

Trump's Presidency has been undermined at every turn by leakers. Some of those leakers are coming from within the intelligence community - which makes them felons. Whoever is behind the leaks may think they're doing something heroic, but what they are actually doing is destroying the sense of trust and fair-play one can reasonably expect from the intelligence community. They are driving the Administration to seek other more secure avenues. Shame on the intelligence community. I hope the leakers are caught and prosecuted.

 

Do you have a link that says the Bay of Pigs backchannel was made without the US intelligence agencies being involved?

There was already a military backchannel to Russia. I gave you the link. There is no need for a military backchannel to Russia that leaves the Pentagon out of the conversation.

You haven't addressed the part of this situation, where the contact was to take place at a Russian institution, so the US intelligence agencies would be left out of the loop. That would be against laws on archiving and documentation of all contacts. The same is true of Trump asking foreign leaders to call his cell phone, without it being recorded and without the State Department setting up the channel. Everything the President and his staff do must be recorded, transcripts and preserved for posterity. Don't you remember Hillary getting in trouble for deleting some emails? She was chastised because the emails weren't being archived. The same is true with any conversation Kushner or Trump would have.

He might be naive enough to have done this stupidly. Might.

 

Stupidly, or unaware of the government culture - which is very different from private business. He was probably eager to show the General how useful he could be.

 

That's certainly a possibility.

My concern is that he also met with a sanctioned Russian banker close to Putin in an attempt to set up a "back channel." A sanctioned banker couldn't do anything to help Flynn in Syria, and shouldn't have been able to do anything to help anyone else in America…. because his bank was sanctioned. There are serious legal ramifications if Kushner even mentioned loans with Gorkov- like 20 years in prison, just for talking about loans with a sanctioned bank.

I'm not nearly as confident that Kushner is naive in doing what he did as you may be. I'm just keeping that in mind that it might be naiveté, stupidity, or ignorance of government, until more information comes out. That the White House hasn't denied that Kushner had those meetings seems telling, but I'm waiting on more information before forming a more definite opinion.

My opinion on the Russian connections to Trump's campaign is that they aren't ever going to prove collusion between Trump, himself, and Russia, even if they find collusion with associates. My opinion has been that money laundering would be his downfall, ever since I first read that the Treasury Department was involved in the investigations. Trump has been already been found to have laundered money in his casinos before. Tigers don't change their stripes.

 

Subpoenas issued to FBI, CIA and NSA to release domestic spying and unmasking docs.

The walls are crumbling around the criminals of the weaponized Obama intel services...

 

I wouldn't stick my neck out for Flynn - I think he was dishonest. I wouldn't bet my eyes that Trump never did anything shady in his life - they all do. But it doesn't ring true to me that he would begin his political career with something shady. On the contrary, I think the only reason he used his personal money to finance his campaign, and the only reason he is even suffering the libelous persecution he receives from the Progs is because he sincerely wants to do something for the people. I think his actions prove that out. His motivation is to die a great man. Not a rich man, he already accomplished that.

 

I'm sure you're aware that Trump has been quoted as saying he would be the first Presidential candidate to make money from campaigning. While he did pay for most of his primary campaign, lots of it was simply moving money from one pocket to the other. When you house your campaign in your own building, charge your campaign rent, charge your campaign to fly your own plane, how much did you really spend? When it came to the general election, he didn't finance that by himself, but could use those donations to pay himself back for the money he charged himself previously. Now, as President, he is charging the government exorbitant amounts of money for golf cart rentals and elevator fees to Secret Service protection for him and his family, not to mention the money he is making on his properties because he is President- so much so, that he can't keep track of foreign spending in his hotels to pay back to the government, as he promised to do to clear the Emoluments Clause. Since he isn't even asking about foreign money at his properties, he is in direct violation of his own plan to comply with the Emoluments Clause. That means the President is breaking the law, deliberately. That's shady business in every step, but you don't see him starting his political career with shady dealings? Really?

To prove libel, you have to have damages. How do you damage the reputation of a man that is a known liar, hypocrite, cheater, money-launderer, scammer? Most of the negative news about Trump he brings it on himself. Trump, alone, hurt our relationships with Australia, Mexico, and Israel. He impulsively told Duterte, a dictator, about the location of our nuclear submarines. Reporting on things like that and the secret, potentially illegal meetings that his staff had with Russians, at a time when there are multiple investigations into Russian meddling, isn't libel. It's the truth. While you may not like that people are leaking stuff like that, the alternative is worse. When the choice is to keep quiet or reveal the damaging things Trump is doing, I'm on the side of America. That puts me on the side of the whistleblowers/ leakers. They are risking their job and possibly prison to actually and patriotically put America first, not just wearing a red hat with a slogan.

Here's another thought… It has been shown that Trump not only knew Flynn was under federal investigation, should have registered as a foreign agent (as such should have never been appointed as National Security Advisor,) had direct contacts with Russian agents and lied about it, and changed US military decisions in the favor of a country giving him money, Trump appointed him anyway. How was that good for America? Trump knew Flynn was bad news, and still gave him access to national security secrets. Trump has even been quoted as wanting to hire Flynn back after firing him.

I don't know how you can say he had the nation's best interest in mind and wants to sincerely do something for the American people, when he put our national security in jeopardy, angered our allies, and is breaking world wide treaties for political purposes. Partner that with spilling national security secrets to Russians and Duterte on a whim, and alienating long term allies like Australia, Mexico, Germany, France, and the UK, and you don't have someone that seems to be working in the best interest of the people of the United States.

 

Long answer - if you don't mind I'll break it down into smaller chunks.
There is no proof he put our national security in jeopardy, or that he spilled national security secrets. Until I hear it from the big boys, I will suspend judgment. Not just because I think it is the more courteous thing to do, but because the unfounded, unproven, flying accusations emanating from unnamed sources, are destabilizing.
As far as "angering" Turnbull - Trump was absolutely right in trying to evade a dumb deal to accept refugees from Australia, foisted on him by Obama. The majority of Americans DO NOT WANT REFUGEES BEING RAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS. That's one reason why Trump won. Turnbull panicked at the prospect of getting stuck with the refugees, and in the end the deal was honored. Too bad, and all Obama's fault. No one cares if Mexico is angry at us; maybe they should look to their own affairs so their people aren't running for their lives. Germany and France are moving close to becoming globalist hell-holes - terror strikes everyday from their refugees. All these are issues that Trump stood against and why he won the election. As for the UK: Trump's slip was nothing compared to what our intelligence community is leaking to the press about Britain's complex investigation into the terror network that struck in Manchester. Don't pin that on Trump - the classified information has been handed directly to the media by U.S. intelligence officials.

So, every action Trump has taken is with his voters in mind. Maybe opponents want to live in a world where there is no right to autonomy, but Trump supporters do not want people flooding in.
If it makes old lady Merkel get angry, so be it. They made their bed, and now they are lying in it.

 

While this is a very thoughtful response, I have to take exception to a few things. There is proof that Trump put our security in jeopardy. While it might not be immediate, spilling secrets he wasn't supposed to spill harms relationships with other countries and whether they choose to provide the intel in the future. By spilling that we had F35s flying over a specific airspace, it makes it easier for enemies to track them in the future.

As to relationships with Australia, Mexico and other countries, Trump is a bull in the china shop. Renegotiating refugee status, trade deals, and more is possible without animosity.

Yes, Trump is taking action with his voters in mind. I'm going to remind you that the majority of Americans did not vote for Trump. So you're going to see pushback, especially when he makes broad, sweeping changes that the majority didn't want and didn't vote for.

I believe you are aware of the difference between immigrants and refugees. No one is cramming refugees down our throats. We are taking displaced people from war torn areas that have no home… the wretched refuse yearning to breathe free, not people just looking for a job. We are a country of immigrants and refugees, and we always have been. You don't have to like people that are different from you, but our country was formed by people that were rejected by their homeland for a variety of reasons and built the biggest economic engine and strongest country in the world from them.

I haven't pinned anything on Trump that Trump, himself, didn't do. He does that well enough himself. He is failing as a President, by himself, without help from me. That hurts my country, and my country is my priority.

 

We will have to accept that we do not see eye-to-eye on this. I see Trump haters trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. If the same people showed consistent concern across the board, and not just where Trump is concerned, I would have more respect for their opinions.

Obama was a TERRIBLE president, and tying up the next administration with all his booby-traps is despicable.

 

Fair enough. I accept that we don't agree on this issue and maybe never will.

What you see as despicable, I see as patriotic.

If former members of Obama's administration took steps to keep Russia from further infiltrating high levels of our government, they did the right thing.

What if that's what it took for the public to find out that Michael Flynn was a paid Turkish foreign agent, acting on their behalf and changing an American military operation in their favor and against our military leaders plans, while serving as National Security Advisor to the President of the United States? Would it have been better not to leak that information and give an illegally unregistered, paid foreign agent, access to all our military classified secrets, or leak the information to get him out of that position of governmental power? Trump wasn't going to remove him without the situation causing public outcry. Since he resisted every warning from every single person giving him a head's up on Flynn, and still hired Flynn. Why is a good question. Despite all that, Trump didn't fire him for 18 days, even after the original story became public. Information was going to leak until Flynn was replaced with someone that wasn't an illegally unregistered foreign agent… because an illegally unregistered foreign agent shouldn't have any access to our most sensitive and classified national security secrets…. especially after he had been proven to act in the best interest of another country, while acting as the National Security Advisor of our country. My hope is that we have more patriots in positions to know information and willing to leak, actually putting American first, than we have compromised people in positions of power that will be asked to act against their own country eventually.

 

I don't resent people who don't like Trump -- My world is all about live and let live. Yet, the laws we live by are good and dependable. It is a HUGE mistake to tamper with them. It's a HUGE mistake to start the precedence of condemning people without facts and without a trial.

When it comes to condemning Trump is a lot of smoke - but there is no fire. There is no smoking gun. There is not even a vape box mod. It is a rumor, and the people spreading it don't have the guts to come forward and put their name to the accusation. How do you know that THEY aren't the Russians, messing with your head? Where's the proof that MSNBC is not a Russian propaganda tool.

You have a rational brain, so I will put this to you: what periods in history were marked by people being condemned and punished or killed without a fair trial and valid evidence? I'll tell you what comes to my mind: Salem - when some young woman caught the evil eye of the alpha goodwife and was burned at the stake for a witch; the West - when a cowboy ran into a saloon and screamed that Joe stole his horse and the men formed a lynch mob and strung Joe up for a horse thief. Often enough it was as simple as having more power: the Count who had his weaker enemy thrown in the dungeon or King David who sent a man off to war so he could steal his wife. Our laws are written to prevent us all from having to live under a day to day fear that someone will ruin our lives with base accusations. So why would anyone with a brain in their head continue to repeat Trump rumors? Everyone in a position to know says there is no evidence. It is a serious enough accusation to spend a lot of taxpayer money on an investigation. Let it happen - see what comes of it. There are already indications that it will come back around to Obama. His people will end up in prison - if not Obama himself.

In the meantime, the progressives are only successful at one thing: alienating the Democrats.
Trump, who is neither conservative nor progressive, is succeeding where others have failed: he has the guts to say the very stuff most people know in their heart of hearts is right.

 

I'm not condemning or judging Trump. I'm not sure where you got that from my post. I only mentioned him because he refused to fire the very compromised Flynn. Getting him out of office isn't a cowboy yelling horse thief, or a witch hunt. Flynn changed our military operations to favor Turkey, while being paid by Turkey. That cannot happen again.

I think Jared Kushner was either desperate or compromised to agree to a meeting with Gorkov. I think Flynn may be just as narcissistic as Trump, because he does what he wants regardless of the consequences… or he's compromised. Manafort has blood money. Even his own daughter says so. These are problematic people to have in positions of power. It may take leakers to actually get Trump to head others speaking truth to power. If that is what it takes, that is what is required. Someone has to leak, in that case… even if it means their job or potential prison time. It's the patriotic thing to do. Otherwise we have another country calling the shots in this one, and that is not a democracy.

 

He did fire Flynn.
??
You seem to be making another one of those presumptive statements implying Trump knew all along Flynn was a Turk-loving liar. They can go after Flynn all they like - and when they get the goods on him I hope he goes to jail. I don't see Trump interfering with that investigation. (Please don't pull out a bunch of CNN or MSNBC stories to validate the opposite). Now we'll be listening to Comey testify - the guy who had his head handed to him in front of the entire world. His credibility is shot, and everyone expects him to act like a sidewinder. Even so, Trump isn't using is executive privilege to prohibit him from casting aspersions.

Jared Kushner will be investigated and the truth will come to light. The only facts are not particularly alarming - unless you put the prog spin on them.

and either way, there is no implication or evidence of anything out of the ordinary. All the rest is smoke and propaganda. Look at every sentence uttered about this subject and you will see the words, "may, reported, looking into" etc. Right now, it is a meeting requested by the Russian ambassador (so?) and the shady banker guy was there. If he is proven through investigation to be a nogoodnik, it still doesn't implicate Kushner. He was just in the same room with him (so? Are you saying it is the first time Americans have met with Russians?)

Narcissism? Name one politician, celebrity or rich person who isn't. They are all problematic personalities, start to finish. That argument is a big non-starter.

At this point in time there is only one crime - the leaks coming from the intelligence community - felonies all. Then we have issues with Obama administration ordering unmasking of political opponents and citizens - jail time. Those are verifiable facts. The rest is rumor from un-named sources - probably Russians.

There is always plenty to criticize if that's how you want to spend your earthly hours. I prefer to look at the results. Trump is beginning to deliver, despite the minefield laid all around him. I think he will win in a landslide in 4 years.