Honest invitation to the Leftist Liberals -- please, tell us on the Right what you REALLY want!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Pollycy, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    It's New Year's Day, 2019, and I'm feeling sick and depressed, because I see a nation cracked down the middle, with two huge, warring political factions that hate each other's guts!

    We have GOT to find ways to come together, to work together, to reason together, and achieve better lives together -- or -- we'll slowly fall into irreversible decay and ruin, while our adversaries and opponents push us to the wayside throughout the world, and project their own power and their national successes over ours.

    Without offering a series of disingenuous 'poll' questions that will make Leftist Liberals distrustful of my motives, I ask simply for your honest opinions -- WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ON THE LEFT WANT?

    What do you consider essential in order for you to work with us on the Right? What is negotiable? What is non-negotiable? Where do you see even a chance for compromise and agreement with us on the Right? Please, express you opinions!

    This is a completely open-ended thread, with no "gotcha's" and I commit right upfront that I will not (NOT) reply with any kind of snotty, combative rejoinders. For the sake of the United States of America, I genuinely want to know what you in the Liberal Left think, what you believe should be done in 2019, and if you are willing to work with us on the Right at all.

    Thank you!

    Aside to my colleagues on the Right -- PLEASE let the Liberal Left posters have their say without jumping down their throats or attacking their viewpoints! If we don't find a way to work together with them, the only things we'll be able to do together, one day in the not-too-distant-future, is to help BURY each other's dead bodies....
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
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  2. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    You ask what is negotiable. The big mistake most of you make is because he co-wrote a book, The Art of the Deal, you think trump is a great negotiator.. That's just another one if his lies. You have to admit any man who has been involved in over 3,500 civil cases has a problem. That's 3,500 times he had the opportunity to negotiate and didn't. Was it because he wouldn't or couldn't? Does it matter? The man does not have the mentality to negotiate. I'll take what we had before John Benhor entered the picture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  3. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I'll bite. With the spirit of compromise I say immigration reform. Deportations do not need to be expressed with outrage from us on the left. There are problems with family separations, but that is the consequence of coming in illegally. That outrage can go away however. Under Obama there was a LOT of deportations. What needs to stop is the labeling of illegal immigrants as some kind of existential threat. The Other. The Enemy. They are just human beings that are seeking a better life. They are just as likely to commit crimes as American citizens are.

    We on the left should concede that if somebody has committed a crime, they should be deported. No more sanctuary cities. But again, the right should not accuse immigrants of bringing in a problem that universally exists everywhere.

    Now as for amnesty, that can be dealt with if we can get a secure border first. I realize those on the right are against it, but we can negotiate that if the border is secure. Which brings me to the wall.

    Border security in itself is not wrong. What's wrong is going about it in an unrealistic way. First those on the right must explain clearly where the money is going to come from. Raise taxes? Divert military spending to border security? Not just say Mexico is going to pay for it. Also a long concrete wall is also absurd. You realize you cannot build along a river right? It will also cut through a lot of private property including Indian reservations. Building inland from the river will create a giant no man's land. Conclusion: abandon your dream of a concrete wall. The more realistic fence is the way to go. Just be honest about what the wall will cost and how it's going to be built.

    There. That's my attempt at a compromise with immigration.
     
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  4. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Please, in this thread, let's make an effort to hear what those in the ranks of the Liberal Left have to say without asserting our own opinions about their beliefs first.

    I'm hoping (although it may be futile) to make this one a different kind of thread, where instead of a big "axe-fight" we genuinely try to understand each other and also understand WHY we believe as we do and to try to find a way to be able to work together, even though our disagreements are profound! If we don't, GreatSatan, I can all but promise you -- in not too-many years, we'll have the Russians and the Chinese lording their victories over us... and I find it impossible to believe that any of us, Left or Right, want THAT....
     
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  5. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    it's not about negotiating (a hyped up metaphor), it's about paying pennies on the dollar for contracted work in a legal manner. legal meaning NOT against the law ;).

    if the left can get past that, then perhaps there's a chance for the op's wishes

    edit: changed 'you' to 'the left's' in last sentence
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  6. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

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    I would like to begin by saying I would like to see name calling and rumors left out of the dialogue. I would like to move away from the wall or no wall discussion and work towards a comprehensive border security plan that might or might not include walls in appropriate places. I would also like to look at a healthcare plan that is simple and effective. I would like to see compromise return to the negotiating table.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  7. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    I am probably considered a liberal lefty around here, although I consider myself more of left-leaning centrist, more conservative on social issues but more left on economics.

    What I want is to stop the decades-long assault on the social security net. That's what I feel GOP tax cuts are all about, they are not about keeping more if your hard-earned money, they are about starving the beast, i.e. the eventual destruction of the social security net by bankrupting it.

    Why, you may ask?

    1) It is my form belief that having a strong social security net strengthens our free market economy, instead of making it weaker. People who are afraid of where the next meal will come from will not be the next innovator. In order to be able to take risk, you need to know that you are covered when the risk taking goes bad. If you punish risk taking too much, people will play it safe, and innovation will slow. That does not mean that innovation should not be rewarded, it should, but there is nothing wrong with sharing some of the spoils with the rest of society, making everyone's lives better. After all, we are a social species, and that's why we are successful.

    2) I have never had anyone in my family and circle of friends who was on public benefits. Myself, I have never accepted a dime of assistance from the government. That doesn't mean that I cannot picture a time when I will be glad that the social safety net has my back and I don't have to rely on charity. I am perfectly happy to pay a substantial amount of my paycheck for that peace of mind. In fact, since taxes are automatically deducted from my paycheck anyway, I never see the, so I don't even think about them, so why should I worry? The heat tax is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics, so those who think they can live without paying taxes are delusional.

    3) Are there abuses of the social safety net? Absolutely. I don't care if there are a few undeserving people living on my dime. I don't think it is smart to undermine the whole system because to eliminate some fraud. Crack down on fraud? Absolutely. But don't fix a working system. After all, the US is the richest nation on earth even while paying for the social safety net.

    Any other issue is secondary to me, although I would prefer a president who is not a con man.
     
  8. TheGreatSatan

    TheGreatSatan Banned

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    Why would I believe a Democrat would want a secure the border?

    As soon as Democrats come to power they could abolish ice and open the border backup. The one good thing about a wall is you can't just go tear it down. You could assign border troops to the border but as soon as democrats come to power they just remove those troops.

    I want to know why sanctuary city health care for illegal immigrant democrats can be trusted with border security?
     
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  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, thanks for sharing in the spirit of the OP.
     
  10. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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    The con in your reply is the notion that Social Security is an entitlement AND it's supposed to be some type of retirement system. Social security was originally named 'social supplement'. And let's be real, the only reason it exists is because people are too dumb to save their own money and invest it. SS is nothing but a tax. There was never a guarantee you would get something back for what you've paid in. Furthermore, how much should you get back? What's the ROR? My own father is collecting SS and he's already got more than he paid in.

    SS = The Affordable Care Act. Nothing affordable about it. Nothing 'secure' about SS either.
     
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  11. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    I applaud you for your efforts to endorse negotiation and compromise. It seems that there are too many on the right and left who do their best to encourage a wide chasm of division.

    In my book, I have coined the term "orchestrated division" to describe the machinations of the corporate sector to limit the Democratic authority intended to be held by the American public over our government, which has been neutralized by our division.

    This division is a manifestation of conflicting values. . . . The corporate sector attempts to convince those content with the status quo that the quality-of-life and even life itself is TOTALLY dependent on economic status, which can be compromised by ethical considerations. The rift created obviously affects primarily the classes that are on both sides of the economic spectrum, but the underlying purpose of this conspiracy is to undermine our democratic process by destroying our unity, thereby giving the corporate sector unbridled freedom to exploit American workers and consumers.

    In order to successfully overcome our present problems, our citizens need to universally acknowledge that human life and the requirements for meaningful existence are infinitely more important than money, and that we are mutually responsible to each other to defend and preserve them. Although it is considered by others to be a nation of abundance, America is defined by its people, not by its borders or resources. It was our spirit, our values, and our unity that made us great, not the fact that we are the world’s richest country. Our wealth is the by-product of coordinated efforts made possible by our unity, and our present preoccupation with the economy is the result of our increasing division.

    We must reaffirm the common belief of our founding fathers that money, while essential to our progress and stability, must not be allowed to interfere with our basic rights and our freedom. As I said, economic wealth and progress have been the by-products of our unity, but we must take care that what we do to protect our achievements does not supersede our commitment to our values, or our own creations will destroy us.

    I cannot emphasize enough that our greatness has been a by-product of the unity of our people, from the realization that if the rights of each individual were not guaranteed, then none of us could expect that guarantee. “WE, THE PEOPLE” make up this nation. WE are the government. Congress, the President, and all government employees supervise and monitor the operation of our country, but in reality are our representatives. Whatever authority they have is given to them by us, and we, collectively, are at the top of the chain of command. Therefore, the effectiveness of our government is determined by the extent of our unity, which determines our ability to negotiate.

    Each one of us need to consider: Will "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL" be the key to our survival, or an omen of impending doom???

    Defiance and condemnation of the opposition are not the answer.
     
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  12. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member

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    I admire your objective, but I have no idea what "those in the ranks of the Liberal Left have to say without asserting our own opinions about their beliefs first." That's a pretty neat trick, reading the collective mind of a given population. If I told you what I think they want (not allowed) it would be wrong anyway. As a dedicated Independent, I can, with great effort, tell you what I want - sometimes. But that's about it. But give it a go.
     
  13. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member

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    Part II. I have traveled all over the United States and done a bit of globe-hopping too. I believe there is a commonality of the human spirit that travels the planet. We want our children to be happy, safe, and successful. We want to be a contributor to our families, friends, and colleagues well being. We want personal success and success for our communities and our nation. We want peace among ourselves and among nations. We feel an indefinable attachment to our fellow travelers. We want to grow as individuals. We want to be decent and honest.

    Those that eschew these hopes and attachments are outsiders.
     
  14. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    you give some decent reasons for wanting a working safety net, but then ignore the waste of the one we have, and one I would personally love to see eventually go bankrupt.

    When I was in my early 20s (many moons ago) a friend of mine the same age finally got on social security after several years of trying to find a doctor who would write him completely out of the work force by signing a paper that said he is completely unemployable due to mental problems. He could and did work, but it was all under the table. I don't think he could hold down a job for long because he was an intravenous drug user.

    I haven't seen him since then, but I assume he's still getting his monthly check.

    I know another guy who might have worked one day of his life, and he's now on social security. Why didnt he work? He sold drugs to support his drug habit. This guy's sister did the same thing, and is now in a hospital as a morbidly obese patient. Hell, she might even be dead by now.

    These people are being supported by a system that has no incentive to change. So if you want a real social security net, I'm afraid that SS isn't that system. You need to get something that has a real incentive to NOT waste money. Maybe some local government type of deal, but the federal government has no incentive to not waste our tax dollars.
     
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  15. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Who you choose to be your friends is YOUR business, but let's not assume that these individuals represent the majority, or even a sizable percentage.

    In fact, the vast majority of RESPONSIBLE Americans have a favorable opinion of Social Security. . . . I don't even think that YOUR opinion is representative of a common conservative platform concerning this issue.

    EVERYTHING involving money presents an opportunity for abuse. . . . Should we ban money???
     
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  16. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I am encouraging those among my own Right-wing colleagues to give the Liberal Left posters in this forum an uncontentious, and even 'friendly' opportunity to express their preferences, hopes, and any suggestions they have toward compromise with us in a meaningful way that can be beneficial for ALL of us. Or, to put it another way, I'm hoping that, together, all of us might be able to come up with "half-a-loaf" concepts instead of a continuation of a totally destroyed 'loaf' that is of no use to anyone.

    Example: I'm just making this up, but if I were on the Liberal Left, I might say that I want a Tax Code Re-do 2.0, that significantly reduces the number of tax loopholes, tax shelters, and tax write-off's that the truly-rich can use to avoid paying taxes, and instead, rework the tax tables so that those in the lower-50% of income earners keep more of their money. Or, I might say that government should enter into negotiations with big pharmaceutical corporations and negotiate the price of drugs for sale in the United States in return for greater funding for border security. As I said, these examples are purely hypothetical, but if we can at least start a dialogue, maybe we can develop something worthy of being referred to the representatives and senators who were elected to do what WE, THE PEOPLE, ask them to get done!

    If we go on the way we've been going since about 2006, the Russians and the Chinese are going to push us out into a dark corner in about ten years time, and keep us there, weak, self-loathing, and impotent....
     
  17. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    They are simply a few real life cases of tax money wasted by the federal government via social security. If you read all the way to the bottom, I pointed out that a lack of incentive is why that was allowed to happen, and why I will applaud the day when it finally goes tits up.
     
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  18. FivepointFive

    FivepointFive Banned

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    Look up to the photons

    and the precipitation

     
  19. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Pretty simple really.
    The Golden Rule. Treat others as you want to be treated.
    From an individual standpoint.
    And our gov't standpoint.

    It's not left v right.
    It's people for people. No matter the make up of their sex, skin color, sexual orientation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  20. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    I like it. An honest call for not only what you want but what you will give. I cant respond now in full because this deserves a serious reply but now I have marked it so I can return later. Thanks for getting this started
     
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  21. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Then I'll treat others as I want to be treated by leaving them alone and allowing everybody to keep as much of their own money as they can. I don't want to burden you with my problems, and I don't want to be burdened with yours.
     
  22. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Very well said, and probably what a lot of us not for the $5B wall bill without any plans on what it's used for.
    Especially since taxes were just cut, don't cut taxes, ask for more money to build a wall that doesn't have any plans.
    Then don't try to cut social services.
    Pay for what you want, without taking from the most needy.

    There's been a saying for a while on Ds and Rs

    D's will tax and spend.
    R's will borrow and spend.
    The constant, is both will spend.
     
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  23. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Since I am not a "leftist liberal" it cannot be said that you have directed your challenge to me. But I will speak as a patriot and say that the bottom line is this: we patriots want you right wingers to take responsibility for the mess you create in society.

    Admit that you financed Marx, the Bolsheviks, and Hitler.
    Admit you created the Great Depression.
    Admit you created Hoovervilles.
    Admit you created the Great Recession.
    Admit you created Reaganvilles.
    Admit it was you who got us into Vietnam.
    Admit you lied about WMD and an imaginary imminent attack.
    Admit you engage in a witch hunt over Benghazi when far more Americans died in embassies under Bush.
    Admit the federal debt is a problem to you only when a Dem is in the White House.
    Admit you steal elections through gerrymandering and voter suppression.
    Admit you censor more people than anyone else whether on campuses or media or forums.
    Admit that all your 'family values' and 'principle' are all shams.
    Admit you hate Muslims while you promote Christian imperialism and intolerance overseas.
    Admit you only hate government when it interferes with gun ownership for whites.
    Admit you love government when it promotes war overseas.
    Admit you love government when cops practice Hitler like brutality against blacks/minorities.
    Admit you always project your hatreds and prejudices unto liberals.
    Admit nobody loves pornography and perverse lifestyles more than you do.
    Admit that nobody deserves the appellation "Pharisees" more than you do.




    Once you practice some honesty and some integrity, this will go a long way towards ending all the problems we see at home and abroad.
     
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  24. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    I truly believe that MANY of our topics of contention are merely token issues not even worthy of serious discussion, but forum members feel an obligation to argue on the basis of their partisanship.

    Personally, I support the Second Amendment, but I feel that ownership of assault rifles designed to inflict mass casualties in the event of war presents an unnecessary opportunity to facilitate mass shootings.

    I don't even believe that the border wall is the REAL issue; the main concerns are the animosity and resentment directed towards aliens and the underlying implications regarding isolationism. In the Senate bill, $1.3 billion has already been approved for border security. With the House and Senate both being controlled by Republicans, this is not clearly a partisan issue.

    And I really don't think that the majority of Republicans support a "survival of the fittest" philosophy.

    But I think that pro-Trump and anti-Trump sentiments play a HUGE part in promoting division.
     
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  25. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Maybe, instead of spewing hate, you should take the beam out of your own eye.
     

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