How can non-citizens register to vote, let alone vote?

Okay, so I'm Australian and have very little understanding of USA elections and the county's politics in general really. I got thinking about this when I heard about non-citizen voting in last years election, which didn't make any sense to me. Here in Australia, we also have to be a citizen in order to vote and this is controlled very easily:

1. You need to register in order to vote.
2. You need to be a citizen in order to register to vote.
3. Your name needs to be on your local electoral roll so that when you turn up to the voting station you can provide your name in order to cast your vote.

The result? Not one single non-citizen can vote.

So my question is, how the hell does it work in the states if its not the above three steps which we use? Because it sounds to me like any man and his dog can simply walk into a voting station, grab some voting papers and drop it in a box. If this is the case, then what is the point of voter registration? And how do they know how many non-citizens have voted?

 

I think that would be interesting to find out as well.

In order to get an ID in the states one must have a birth certificate and the Socialist Surveillance Number. ...ooops, "Social Security Number." We jokingly call the resulting National ID Card a driver's license.

My best guess is that some undocumented foreigners go to the Internal Revenue Service and get an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. That is how the majority of undocumented workers get other ID and jobs. Maybe some states issue a driver's license or some other form of ID to the undocumented workers and then register to vote - IF it happens at all.

Of course, the federal government took the de facto step to guarantee a person's "right to vote" when no such right ever existed. It's a convoluted mess, but state officials are saying that no undocumented foreigners are voting - and IF they are in jurisdictions where the National ID Cards should be preventing it, then the Tea Party Republicans got a lot of 'splaining to do.

 

Well at the very least, I am curious how you yourself registered to vote.

SSN results in a driver's license? Doesn't passing a driving test result in a driver's license?

In Australia, a foreigner can't legally work without having at least a temporary working visa. For this reason, if they were to go to our IRS equivalent (Australian Tax Office) and ask for our ITIN equivalent (Tax File Number) for the purpose of working, they will not be allowed one.
Are you saying that the IRS just hands out ITIN's to every man and his dog regardless of their working status?

A driver's license enables someone to register to vote?

What? Doesn't a "right to vote" exist for citizens?

So states handle voter registration? Isn't it the federal government who handle it in federal elections? What the hell is 'vote.gov' all about then?

 

I don’t think an illegal immigrant (or a legal immigrant who shouldn’t be voting) in the US would necessarily find it all that difficult to register to vote, especially if they’ve already obtained some form of ID and/or social security number (legitimately or not). I think the main problem is that there is very limited checking for the registration details but a reliance on the implicit affirmation from the individual that they have the right to vote (and the fact it’s a criminal offence to make that declaration falsely).

To be honest, the system is pretty much the same (and as insecure) here in the UK and I suspect so in Australia too. I suspect there isn’t massive concern since the harm done by a small number of illegitimate voters would be minimal and the costs of carrying out the level of individual checking that would be necessary to prevent it would be prohibitive. I suspect fraud prevention measures will focus on methods that can have large-scale impact rather than individuals who shouldn’t be voting but really want to take part in the democratic process.

I do find it telling with Americans who show an almost obsessive focus on voter ID but say almost nothing about electoral registers (though the bigger problem there is that the last of effort in keeping them up to date with people who move or die rather than intentionally illegitimate registrations). The call should probably be for registration ID rather than (or as well as) voter ID.

 

Whether they have a social security number or any number of other forms of ID, the fact is they are not a citizen, so I can't understand how they can register to vote.

I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't the UK have a database of all citizens, just like Australia and the US? If someone tries to register and they aren't a citizen, then they won't be able to register. That's how it works here in Australia. I'm just not able to understand how someone becomes successfully registered to vote if they are not a citizen. The whole thing makes zero sense to me.

 

Well, the problem is that there is no real good way to verify citizenship in step 2. A few corrupt election officials, and #2 isn't relevant, and is why non-citizens can often register to vote.

 

Really good fake ID and a fake SSN and proof of local residency like a bill sent in by mail etc. are adequate its a simple matter the government records are so convoluted one hand rarely knows what the other one is doing, then have the ballot sent by mail if you can and you can vote. Putting a permanent coded chip in the hand would be far more secure but no one wants to go there and one central data base for all ones records to put the chip information together.

 

if you fill out a registration as mickey mouse, by law it has to be turned in, this is to prevent parties from tossing out the other parties registrations, obviously they can't vote though

 

They lie. All registration requires is a name, an address and an SSN, which they can get. Nobody is actively checking the electoral registers for non-citizens (which would be difficult anyway given the lack of definitive databases and limited inter-departmental communications) so they’re unlikely to be noticed. I think you’re being very naive to think the same isn’t possible in Australia.

I doubt any of these countries have a database of all citizens. There’ll probably be databases of citizens with (or who have had) passports, which isn’t everyone of course and other databases which could be used to infer citizenship for some people but no singular source that could be used for a simple check. There is also the issue that electoral registers and typically managed by regional authorities while such databases will generally by national and there is typically limited legal or practical scope for them to interconnect.

 

Easy enough in most jurisdictions. Just fill out a voter registration card - no ID required. It comes in the mail. Take the voter registration card to go vote - again no ID required. Easy enough.

However, most voter fraud occurs within the polls themselves by poll workers, who can run thru as many ballots as they want to. Nothing to stop them. This was so much done in Michigan that a recount was declared impossible for how much the number of votes cast did not match the number of voters who signed in.

 

You can do it online. The only "verification" is that you check a box swearing your lies are the truth, and the only verification by the registrar is that you checked the box.

 

I don't know when you are asking questions and when you're being sarcastic.

In the United States, the IRS chases after anyone that don't pay income taxes. The whole scheme is unconstitutional, unconscionable, immoral, illegal, etc. but we do have a de facto / illegal - pseudo government operating here.

Your immigration status does not change the fact that the IRS wants money from you. So, undocumented immigrants get the Individual Taxpayer Identification Number and pay the taxes. Besides, when they do that, they are almost guaranteed an amnesty when they are offered.

I registered long before they had SSN based National ID. So, the rules that have been in place since 2006 didn't apply to me.

We have a convoluted system in America. The Secretary of State (at the state level) is in charge of registering voters. Each state determines eligibility. It is possible, and I don't know that it happens, but if it does, it is possible that a state could issue a state ID card based upon a person's ITIN. Then, the state could register that person to vote. I don't live in an immigrant friendly state, so Georgia does not issue ID cards to undocumented foreigners. The ITIN is virtually impossible to be mistaken for the SSN, so it isn't an issue here.

By federal law, you must be a citizen in order to vote. I don't know that any state does what I say is possible, but if they aren't doing it, then there is little, if any, voter fraud going on.

 

An INS investigation in 1996 into alleged Motor Voter fraud in California's Forty-sixth Congressional District revealed that "4,023 illegal voters possibly cast ballots in the disputed election between Republican Robert Dornan and Democrat Loretta Sanchez."...

California's registration laws make it easy to get anyone on the voter rolls (the accused assassin of Mexican presidential candidate Luis Donaldo Colosio was a registered Democrat in San Pedro)...

And it was not just Dornan who found an irregularity or two in the group's registrations. So did the Los Angeles Times and an independent organization, the Fair Elections Group. Taxpayers will be pleased to learn that Hermandad Nacional Mexicana was not only a non-profit organization, in spite of its activities, but was subsidized by grants from a variety of governments. And those who have read this site for some time will not be surprised that nearly all of those registered by the organization requested absentee ballots. As we have learned again and again, absentee ballots are the choice of most who commit vote fraud....

http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003321.html

 

Wow. I really DON'T know anything about US politics! How the hell is tax illegal?
And how long has their been a "psuedo" government and how is it psuedo?

What the hell? Doesn't this just encourage illegal immigrants? This means someone can pay taxes and feel like they aren't doing anything wrong, because the one good of paying taxes cancels out the wrong of them being illegal. My God, no wonder you've got such a problem over there - your government encourages it!

 

The income tax is illegal because it exists by way of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The 16th Amendment is a plank out of the Communist Manifesto AND the Amendment was not constitutionally ratified. Just in case you want more information here are a couple of links:

http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/notratified.htm

https://onenewsnow.com/perspectives...o-legal-authority-to-tax-your-wages-or-salary



Depending on how you look at it, America has been under the control of a de facto / illegal government for a number of years. Our Constitution guarantees us a Republican Form of Government, but even the Republican leadership tries to refer to us as a Democracy. That would be a thread unto itself. Needless to say, when it's convenient, even Republicans are all about mob rule (aka Democracy) with no regard for unalienable Rights.

Finally, too many people do not understand the situation in America. In the first place, America has always been the destination for immigrants from every corner of the world. Even when only white people could become citizens, people flocked here from all over to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the base of the Statue of Liberty are the following words:

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Our government did five things that complicated the immigration issue:

1) They illegally passed the 14th Amendment that created automatic birth citizenship

2) They passed civil rights laws and forced an amalgamation of the races

3) The government then imposed immigration laws that put a quota system in place and almost forces people to become citizens in order to do business in the U.S.

4) The United States Supreme Court gave Congress "plenary powers" over immigration. THAT was illegal as well. Our Constitution does not give the Supreme Court the authority to empower ANY branch of the government to do or not do anything

5) The radical right tried to make Liberty a crime and they ended up putting millions of their own in prisons and jails only to be returned after their punishment to be second class citizens that were disenfranchised

Before the Supreme Court got involved, Congress was limited to things like establishing "an "uniform Rule of Naturalization." States were free to invite whomever they wanted into their state and guest workers were not hampered by a quota system NOR the expectation that they would seek citizenship.

In the early 2000s the National Socialists began dominating the issue and infiltrated the citizen militias while they took over the Tea Party with unworkable ideas that have cost America TRILLIONS in tax dollars, gutting our Constitution and creating a whole class of disenfranchised Americans. And those beaming paragons of human virtue have not figured out how to even make a dent in the problem. So convinced are those deluded by the snake oil salesmen that they think they can criminalize Liberty, penalize businesses for making a profit by hiring the person they want for a job, and turn American into the ultimate POLICE STATE.

The anti-immigrant lobby is responsible for increasing the numbers of new citizens by way of immigration; they have locked out their own American brethren via the assault on the Fourth Amendment which creates background checks that a large portion of Americans can't pass. Consequently, that portion of America is locked out and they become career criminals, giving America the distinction of having more people in jail and prison than any planet on the face of the earth. By penalizing employers for hiring people we invite in, companies leave the U.S. rather than to be governed by socialist regulations.

Instead of incentivizing employers with substantial tax breaks to hire Americans and take people off welfare and unemployment, they want to criminalize employers for exercising their Liberty and running their businesses profitably. Instead of giving businesses tax breaks to bring jobs to America, we are running them off by implementing too many regulations. Instead of putting our own people to work, we are putting them into jails and prisons and FORCING them to be on drugs (whether legal or illegal drugs.) Instead of creating a credible Guest Worker program with no automatic path to citizenship, we are forcing people to become citizens and seal our inevitable demise as we become the minority and those from socialist / communist countries begin to outnumber us. All that and there is still a better way.

 

There are a number of ways that illegal aliens influence our elections. Amongst those, illegals actually forging documents and casting a vote is probably the least influential.

One way they influence our elections is by birthright citizenship. They have babies... lots of them. Many come here for the purpose of having their baby on US soil. If the baby lands on US soil, he immediately becomes a US citizen. In 18 short years, he becomes a voter. In this way, democrats encouragement of illegal immigration is a long-term investment strategy in their voter base.

Another way is manipulation of the electoral college. Once every 10 years, our census counts the number of all residents (not only citizens) of each state, across the nation. They re-allocate the electors according to this count. By creating so-called "sanctuary cities", where immigration laws are ignored, democrats attract large numbers of illegal immigrants to traditionally democrat-voting states, and establish themselves as the party friendly to illegal immigrants. When the census runs in 2020, they will count these illegal immigrants in the blue states, and re-allocate electors based on the population increase. The red states, who enforce immigration laws, will have electors taken from them to be given to the blue states, who do not. This gives the democrats an edge in presidential elections for the next 10 years.

So you see, casting an actual vote is only one of the ways that illegal immigrants can influence our elections.

 

That is the standard fare sold to a gullible public. Attacking the electoral college, repeating the unsubstantiated charge that voter fraud is occurring and the incessant charge of "forged documents" still prevails. The radical right wanted to address those charges with the National ID / REAL ID Act, SSN number based ID Cards - E-Verify.

Today, you have all of that and you are still claiming voter fraud via "forged documents." Isn't that admitting that the TRILLIONS of tax dollars you've spent thus far was spent in vain?

And, to add insult to injury, you are left to attack the electoral college - a symbol of our Republic? Didn't it ever dawn on you guys that your proposed "solutions" always involve a National Socialist solution? Or maybe you DO know?

The one solution I can't wrap my head around is the one which forces people to become citizens in order to do business here. You force people to become citizens and ultimately they outnumber you and this discussion becomes moot. At what level does this make sense to you on? OR, is there some end game the anti-immigrant lobby has that eludes the rest of mankind?

 

I think voter fraud via forged documents, i.e. actual illegal immigrants showing up at the polls and casting an illegal vote, is almost non-existent. Short of being paid by someone else to do so, there is substantial risk and little reward for them.

The rest of the post I was merely stating what I see happening, and what I think the motivation and the result is. None of this reflects on my view of what immigration policy should be. I am pretty much in agreement, personally, with what you have said in this thread.

 

Illegals (regardless of if they border-hopped or overstayed their visas) can find employment, are issued tax id numbers, are issued SSNs, library cards, provided medical assistance, food stamps, education, driver's licences, and can vote in the US. These are things that they do through legal channels already. But there are also many illegal ways to forge any of those documents (that are completely fabricated or via stolen identity).

 

What's more concerning to me (here in the US) is how low the voter turnout is among citizens that can legally vote.

 

Half truths that would take too much time to straighten out.

1) Undocumented immigrants are not issued an SSN. They are issued an ITIN for tax purposes and they put $13 BILLION DOLLARS a year into the system

https://news.vice.com/article/unaut...billion-into-social-security-over-last-decade

2) EVERYBODY in America gets medical assistance at hospitals, but if you don't have insurance, you pay. And those paying cash pay more than those with insurance for the same procedures

3) Undocumented immigrants DO NOT qualify for most welfare

4) No driver's license without the SSN based National ID we discussed earlier

5) Stolen ID is not viable any more and forgery is easily detected

The National Socialists are really in a bind. The people who oversee the voting in the U.S. have to prove the soundness of the process in order to thwart the left's accusation that the Russians helped Trump win via voter fraud which discounts these wild theories of voter fraud by alleged "illegal aliens."

There IS an easier way to handle this.

 

Here's another interesting thing. Last month when I voted in the Governor primaries, I received two ballots in my folder. Now I did notify the poll managers immediately before turning in my ballot, but I could have just as easily voted twice (or more if I'd had more ballots in my folder). The first thing that crossed my mind was how many voters would be so honest. The second thing that crossed my mind (unfortunately too late) was that I should have pulled out my phone and taken a picture of the additional ballot beside the one I was authorized to vote with.

 

1) They are in my State.

2) No, if you cannot pay then the resident tax payers pic up the tab.

3) They do in my State. In fact they cater to them here.

4) Everyone has a SSN here, legal or illegal, unless they don't seek it.

5) Identity fraud is out of control, I have no idea what would make you think otherwise.

 

All they need is a valid name and address on a voter registration form, and the confidence they won't vote....the 'community organizers' do the rest. How do you think dead people vote? Why might you think they're so vehemently opposed to positive ID requirements?

 

That is a worldwide problem and accounts for a lot of problems.