How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full or overflowing with goodness?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greatest I am, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full or overflowing with goodness?

    Not to be a bean counter that ignores the evil that is still with us, but if I look strictly at the statistics for what I call the evil markers, crime, death by violence including war, poverty, poor health and
    education; I see them all at the best levels we have ever enjoyed.

    This is in spite of the few places where the stats are backsliding, which ironically includes the U.S., a Christian nation; whose
    education level is going down, along with its moral sense.

    I will let you find whatever stats you might be interested in and will only offer the stats spoken of, at the end of this link.

    Richard Dawkins - Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0

    I see our cup running over in spite of the vile and immoral mainstream religions that we are maintaining, for God only knows why. We can thank all the gods that the religious are not walking their talk and are following more moral ways.

    How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full; or overflowing with goodness?

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. Spooky

    Spooky Banned Donor

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    Morals and ethics vary from society to society so who's are you basing it off of?
     
    CourtJester and Greatest I am like this.
  3. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    World wide morals and ethics are basically harmonious. We are one species and are as locked into those concepts as much as any other DNA based entity. If you think of the 80 20 rule, we are way ahead of that on the good side. That is super close to 100% as confirmed by social science, at a minimum of 70%. Deviance can't be more than about 3%.

    I also base it on all the stats in the clip as well as the type shown in this link.



    Regards
    DL
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't see it as a cup. A filled cup indicates to me a state where no more work needs to be done and additional work will end up on the floor. Having the "best levels" says nothing about how close to perfection we are. I don't believe perfection is attainable, and I don't think we should focus on perfection, when we have plenty to do in our current situation.
     
  5. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    So what level do you see us at? Half full or better?

    More good or more evil?

    Regards
    DL
     
  6. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I mean, the only meaningful level equivalent to a brim, we are still far from, so if anything, I'd say very far from full, but I wouldn't want to suggest that that means that everything is terrible. It's the standard that is high.
     
  7. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    If the Gods on our moral menu are to be judged, then the standard that the religious set is rather satanic given the putrid genocidal Gods like Yahweh and Allah that theists have ended with.

    We should help the religious think, if we can.

    Regards
    DL
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    That's the thing, I don't necessarily see the "brim" of the cup of morality to be a useful comparison point.

    I agree that we should help the religious (or anyone else) to think, but I don't think shoving their apparent immorality in their faces helps them to think, I think that reinforces their views.
     
  9. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Only if they are fools and then nothing will help them.

    Regards
    DL
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's probably also useful to figure out where we came from. That is, what does an empty cup look like (given acceptance of this weird "cup" model)?

    I don't see how our progress could be described as being half way to Nirvana.
     
  11. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Do you see the world as getting better or worse?

    Regards
    DL
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There are significant areas that are probably getting worse.

    Given that we've been involved in some of those areas I'm not so sure that any greatness by us or others outweighs what's going on overall.

    I think our species is doing little more than holding its own.
     
  13. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Donor

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    Compared to what? Compared to God? Compared to an ideal? Compared to angels? Compared to demons? Compared to "our collective moral and ethical cup" at another time or in another place? Theoretically? Statistically? Practically?

    Morality is relative. It is calibrated relative to either something without or within. It is calibrated once and forever or on the fly or sometimes in between.

    So I ask again, in all sincerity, compared to what?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Only if you ignore all the stats that show otherwise.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Compared to what the link speaks of near the end of the presentation.

    Regards
    DL
     
  16. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's a link to a Richard Dawkins video.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  17. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Quite an astute observation.

    Regards
    DL
     
  18. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I disagree. Fools and wise people alike are easily fooled by their own convictions and their view of the world.

    That being said, it has been known for ages that persuasion through hostility is fruitless. I would class it foolish to believe that "shoving their apparent immorality in their faces" is persuasive. There are other methods which are way more likely to help. Of course, I am not a diplomat, I do not know what they are, but I do know that they become a lot harder when people create hostility for no reason.
     
  19. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Physical hostility, I agree, yet that is exactly how Christianity and Islam grew their vile religions by using inquisitions and jihads.

    You message is to a creed that was almost completely decimated by the religions you say we should tap dance around. Shove that advice buddy.

    The verbal hostility I use has a good and just cause. For the evils you would tap dance around to grow, all good people need do is your dance.

    If persuasion via a better ideology and moral arguments are ignored, which they are, by the idol worshiping supernaturally thinking brain dead religionists, then to white wash the truth is to help those vile and immoral creeds.

    Regards
    DL

    Regards
    DL
     
  20. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    So? I don't think we should copy them, so that's probably not so relevant to us.

    Not sure what you are referring to. What creed do you think my message is for?

    I don't care what cause it has, if it has a detrimental effect, I won't want it. You have yet to argue that evil grows any slower with your approach. Classic rhetoric doesn't support you, polarisation theories don't support you. The current tensions in the ME don't support you (although I would ascribe that mainly to non-verbal hostility, but I would argue they don't work that differently).

    Besides, I wouldn't suggest tap dancing, my approach focuses on being fair and clear on an individual level. Certain aspects of hostility does work, but only if it is clear how it links to the thing we want to punish, and that improving one's behaviour would help. If we give the impression that we just hate the essence of their being, they're unlikely to even consider changing.

    That seems to me not to follow. What good is maintaining the hostile arguments if they won't listen to them anyway?

    That's not to say I think people don't listen to moral arguments, I just don't think they listen to moral arguments that are made with a hostile tone. I'm sure there are other caveats too, my point is simply that hostility itself is not enough to prove that an argument is helpful.
     
  21. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    You were talking to me and my Gnostic Christian creed.

    I agree, and at an individual level, Christians are supporting an immoral religion with homophobic and misogynous teachings and a genocidal son murdering prick of a God.

    We have talked of such things before. Go away with your soft gloves when a jackhammer is requires.

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Ever since you said "we should help the religious to think", I assumed you were irreligious. That being said, the point doesn't depend on the religion in question (which is why I didn't verify).

    You have yet to show that a jackhammer is required or beneficial. I think a glass polisher is justified in questioning the guy bringing a jackhammer to the glass cleaning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  23. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I have even run O.P.s asking all people if they have ever changed the thinking in a fundamental way with their interlocutors. Almost no one on either side said that they had changed minds or had theirs changed.

    If you want me to respect your ways more than mine, show where yours has worked.

    Few were more meek and mild than Jesus and the religious murdered him.

    Regards
    DL
     
  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    And do you think they had more hostile or friendly discussions? It is often a central point of persuasion to convince the other that they're not abandoning a previously held principle, I bet many of the people who answered you have been persuaded, but so successfully that they didn't even notice.

    Firstly, I would point you to the third part of Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and influence people. It has many specific personal examples. In addition, I'd bring up the Marshall help. Not maybe in its technical detail, but it and the reasoning behind it is often credited with Germany being a part of peaceful Europe, as opposed to the vindictive Peace of Versailles which, by putting blame on Germany, simply made them go to war again as soon as they could. In the spirit above, of persuading people without stringent argument, I'd also point to the entire field of marketing, who skilfully shapes many aspects of our lives, not by telling us clever reasons for it, but by giving us the idea that they understand us and our plights. The same goes for politics. You may say that they often try to present arguments, but if you look at the impact, they rarely persuade actual opponents, they persuade the middle ground people who they're not arguing against.

    I dunno, I don't know anyone who's been so wild as to overturn money changers' tables. I seem to recall the plot against Jesus to include pharisees and rabbis, which he had called out for hypocrisy.
     
  25. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    LOL. Ok.


    Which I spent my career in before retiring. Technical sales and marketing actually.

    The art of the sale is to deal with objections to it. I as my interlocutors for their so that I might deal with their issues, but they never get that far before running for the hills due to not being able to do decent apologetics for their vile and immoral Gods.

    They cannot deal with objections while I can, if their moral sense is not fully corrupted by their belief system.

    I agree and write for the lurkers as much if not more than the belligerent and obtuse brain dead interlocutor I address.

    Regards
    DL
     

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