How the Union benefits Scotland and the Scots.

This thread is not on Germany. I think it would be wise for Scotland to invest in quality products which she can sell worldwide so that she is not at the beck and call of global operators and can engage in democracy and create her own future. That is what I said. When the Constitution is presented you will see that it includes rights so quite your baiting. You deliberately misrepresent everything. Earlier on you were having France and England attacking Scotland and comparing her to Iran.

This thread, and I understand there is a forum policy that threads should say on topic is about what benefits the Union can give to Scotland and the Scottish people. Your suggestion that people can be homeless tramps is no benefit.

 

You do seem to like pushing people around, I suppose historically bullying is one of the traits of Nationalism.

You are the one who brought Germany into the discussion, in post #64, remember.

But now suddenly Germany is off topic for some reason.

You were the one brought up England and France invading Scotland too, I've never said anything about it, purely part of your vivid imagination. Do you see something wrong with Scotland being compared to Iran? I didn't actually do that, I just pointed out that if Scotland were to nationalise the oil industry other countries would impose sanctions on them, as they have with Iran. But if I had compared Scotland with Iran what would it have mattered? They aren't untermench or anything.

I never suggested people could be homeless tramps. In fact when Highlander was complaining about firms in Scotland giving preference for jobs to people from outside the area he seemed to be implying it was to the benefit of the outsider and the detriment of the local. I merely pointed out that it was the same everywhere, not just in Scotland, it isn't a conspiracy against the Scots. It seems in your mind that Scots are being persecuted when people come to work in Scotland and they are also being persecuted when they go to work elsewhere. You seem to think that people who work on building sites, as my friend did, doesn't have the right to work where he wants to or where he can make most money, they should just build everything within walking distance of his house.

 

Chosen to highlight yet another character feature and so apposite to this Thread .



A plane was shot down over Syria and the crew were taken to Basher himself a Scotsman,an Englishman and an Australian. Basher says "I'm not as cruel as Obama says I am .You will be given 50 lashes each but you can have whatever you want on your back"
The Australian goes first and asks for the finest Kangaroo hide there is , to cover his back. This is granted and he receives the kangaroo hide before he receives 50 lashes. His back is all torn and bleeding but he survives.
The Englishman says "I will take it as it comes I will have nothing on my back and will be proud to bear the scars" he shouts defiantly"Stiff upper lip you know eh what" His wish is granted and he receives his 50 lashes, his back torn and bleeding, his ribs fractured and protruding, a terrible mess to behold.
"Now Jock It's your turn you have the same choice as the other two , what would you like on your back" says Basher .
Jock replies quickly and without hesitation "I'll have the Englishman"


Straight to the jugular .

 

True.....laughter is a great way for one to see one's excesses and the realisation of the "end of a road"!
2014 will be the culmination of poor treatment of the Scottish nation!

Regards
Highlander

 

I think -- taking even a charitable view -- you have had your " money's worth"
Bar Stewards .
XX

 

Mmmm...what's the matter son....truth too much for you?

Have I hurt your feelings......those without the ability to explain ones self, resort to name calling...like children!

Have a nice day...son!

Highlander

 

Ad hominen personal attack. Describe the post not the poster.

No, I said following the German Model we could re-industrialise and produce quality Manufacture. You quickly distorted this to give some different meaning than I had and to make Germany not the Union being of benefit to Scotland and the Scottish people the subject of the thread

- just like you are distorting that I brought Germany into the thread. I used Germany simply as an adjective, not as a focus of discussion on how the Union benefits the Scottish people.

Making German the focus of the thread is not what the thread is about. I clarified what I meant. Start another thread on Germany if that if you want to but this thread is on what benefits, if any Unionist gives Scotland and 80 posts on not one has been given.

Here is what you said

Admittedly I noticed Gadaffi and I skim your posts as they lack credibility as they are not for discussion just flame. However the inferred threat here is that Scotland will be attacked just like Saddam Hussein and Gadaffi were.

Your entire post as every post is a flame. I am not going to answer any more of for that reason.

This thread is on benefits that Union can give to Scotland. When Highlander mentioned people losing jobs, you mentioned a supposed Highland friend who had to leave his home and go tramping about looking for work and living in digs first in England and then in Holland.

That is not a benefit of Union and that is what this thread is on. Nothing else.

 

on holiday were you? I used to go on holiday during the spring and autumn breaks and stay at a Crofters cottage owned by my in-laws at Loch Torridon. There is plenty I could tell you about the folks who lived there but it would not mean I lived there.

This thread is on advantages of the Union to the Scotland and the people of Scotland not to people's holiday adventures and whether or not they liked the local inhabitants - in your case it appears you did not.

Does anyone actually have anything they believe is an advantage of the Union to Scotland and her people. If not I am sure you can see why a Referendum is being offered.

Once a level of momentum is met, it is unlikely to change unless something enormous happens to change it. So far this has not happened. Politically Scotland and England, the major Union player, have moved further and further apart. I do not know if people will vote for Independence in 2014 but it is on the cards - we have already moved so far away that the only outcome is eventual Independence whether that happens in 2014 or 2020.

So does anyone have a genuine strong benefit for us staying in the Union which could out weigh that?

 

So what you are saying is that anybody who doesn't agree with you must be a troll, every post which points out the flaws in your argument must be off topic and that a Scot being able to find good well paid employment south of the border and send his money home is not a benefit to the Union. I didn't say he had to leave his home and go tramping about BTW, that too is just part of your vivid imagination.

 

I would say you are a troll yes.

1. You have totally ignored legitimate information given to you on this thread.

2. There is a difference between legitimate argument and simply distorting things.

You are trolling and have consistently refused to address information provided to you but gone off instead on a tangent twisting what has been said to add a bit of bait and flame.

 

Aye but he's nailed his colours to the mast in doing so!

He cannot be constructive, he cannot defend the status quo...what else can he do.....certainly not defend the English tory political system directly!

Regards

Highlander

 

I thought you would have worked out by now that I have no feelings .
"Bar Stewards" is a description and just a straight forward statement . It's common parlance down here in the sunny , happy south .
I loathe Slugs and call them Slimy Bar Stewards but they don't hurt my feelings . You over rate your imagined importance .

 

There you go letting your vivid imagination run away with you, the Kishorn workers weren't exactly locals, only time we saw them was when they were heading home to England at end of contract. The bosses at Kishorn laid everybody off for a couple of weeks between contracts so the workers didn't have the same rights as a permanent employee would.

 

Obviously!

No.... No ....I will agree with your observations....the things you have to do to keep the children happy!


Regards

Highlander

 

Oh so it was English you were mocking for being drunk was it?...and yet you gave the distinct impression it was the Scot's.

To

you replied

 

I can't defend the SNP plans to cut corporation tax either, I can't defend their U turn on their promise to re-regulate the busses, I can't defend their slashing the fuel poverty budget. I can't defend any of their Tory policies.

 

I most likely passed you but its a consensus government something totally alien to those friend of yours south of the border ...well at least since Clement Attlee's day!

Fuel prices: the SNP have absolutely no control as yet!

The buses would be a decision in which the Scottish nation would have to agree....myself......I'd re-nationalise them and have a grown up transport system instead of this fragmented abortion which we, as tax payers still have to pay a subsidy!
As would I hydro power trains and coal to mention but a few!

But you can defend the tory parties policies in disavowing the right of the Scottish nation its inalienable right to self determination and sovereignty!

But ...... that's a tory for you!

Well and truly nailed!

Regards and commiserations to Cameron etc!

Highlander

 

Not fuel prices, the fuel poverty budget, the money spent on preventing old aged pensioners from dying of hypothermia in winter which has been slashed by the SNP. The Scottish nation will not get the chance to decide about the buses because despite their pre election promises the SNP have removed it from the agenda.

 

And just where in this thread has anybody ever asked you defend the Union or anything else, fredc?

What this thread asks is for Unionists to GIVE GOOD REASONS AS TO WHY SCOTLAND SHOULD WANT TO STAY IN THE UNION..in other words the benefits that have accrued to Scotland due to the Union....benefits that they would lose if they became Independent because they are benefits only the Union can give.

So far you have continued the only Unionist argument seen so far on the internet anywhere...lies, misinformation, myths, sneering....in fact, the same almost professional level of ineptitude which characterises the Unionist campaign so far.

I do wish that posters on this and other threads could learn to ignore the puerile rubbish written by you and your compatriots on here, which appears designed always to derail and confuse the issue and switch people off.

Best thing those who support independence can do is never engage with trolls unless they argue a sensible and valid point..but unfortunately there will never be any discussion of the benefits of Independence to Scotland either if we were to wait for that.

This thread consists so far, of 93 posts, not one of which takes any notice of the OP. It consists of 41 off-topic posts (29 of them yours) by Unionists because they simply can't come up with any benefits accruing to Scotland if they stay in the Union....and the rest are people responding to the the off-topic posts and derailing the thread further.

Perhaps it is time to change the thrust of the OP to include the benefits to Scotland of NOT staying in the Union..and then, given the type of posts being made by Unionists, their/your lies, misinformation, myths and sneering will at least be as vaguely on topic as they are on the Struggle for Independence thread.

 

Sorry.... do I hear of your concern for the older generation of Scotland, just a pity its not supported by your cronies south of the border for the English nation.
We in Scotland enjoy the right of our pensioners to get free prescriptions...something Attlee gave which your friends again your lot voted against! Free care...another thing lost to the English nation because of your cronies south of the border....thats why so many are now coming north!
We still have cradle to grave NHS...pity the deception which is allowing your lot to implement the destruction of the English NHS!
As for the buses....your lot south of the border stole it and sold it off...I'll give them the SNP time to come to a conclusion as to the way forwards, but one thing for sure, first consideration will be to the people not the profit margins of the rogues...unlike your tory parasites south of the border!

Oooh and did I mention the council tax freeze.....again by the SNP!

Oooh and what about the free education for all Scots again something disposed of by your compatriots south of the border denigrating the English nation to lesser human beings! Well your tory brothers wouldn't want the surfs to get ideas above there station!

But thank you for your kind words of wisdom, and your constructive advice for the people of Scotland......yer a bloody tory hypocrite!


Highlander

 

good points. Yet another exposed.

http://www.uswitch.com/news/utiliti...ficiency-budget-boost-for-scotland-800773353/

but totally agree that is not what the OP is about.

 

Benefits to me of not being in the Union. Our own foreign policy, becoming a peaceful nation, getting rid of nukes.

These desires would keep me away from Devo Max.

Then there is our own written Constitution with human rights and right to information and so on it it which will likely create the tone and norms of the Independent Scotland. The UK has no written constitution and is thinking of opting out of EUHR which she herself created.

 

That the same budget, the Warm Front one, that the UK coalition is cutting by two-thirds and removing completely by 2014 in England and Wales?

I'm one of those in fuel poverty......and I'm also one of those who didn't vote for the Government which privatised the energy companies.

The main factors influencing fuel poverty are household incomes, fuel costs and the energy efficiency of homes.

Given Scotland has very little say in household incomes, as taxes and benefits are reserved matters, and very little say in fuel costs as the energy companies are private companies, with shareholders to be satisfied first of all, I assume you are talking about the money available to make homes more energy efficient? Therefore, the factors in Scotland, which are the main reason for the rising levels of fuel poverty,not enough income and the price of fuel, are factors pretty well out of their control, and down to decisions of the UK Government and the fuel companies.

An independent Scotland could possibly deal with both those issues differently to the way the UK does...but a Scotland within the Union does not have that option. They do what they can with what the UK allows them to have.

Regarding the "slashed by the SNP"....care to give some figures for that?

And a link to what you are talking about re the buses would be good as well. I'm not aware of anything at the moment.....and frankly, I can't be bothered looking for the minutiae by which you seem to set such store.

As long as the Scottish government hangs onto the free (or cheap) bus passes for a few years yet, and doesn't reduce bus services where I live too much below the current six buses a day, I can't say I'm overly bothered if other areas get less than one every twenty minutes.

 

That would count as benefits of Independence to Scotland and the Scots....not just to you!

There would also, if we stay in the EU, be the benefit of 7 representatives out of 7, rather than 0 out of 29 to undertake negotiations over the likes of fishing rights in Scottish waters etc, which the UK handed over with such alacrity as part of an EU joining fee.

Independence in and of itself would not rid Scotland of inequality, low pay, pensioner poverty and the other problems inherent in any capitalist economic system which is imposed and controlled from outside...but independence would allow the Scots to pursue the political and economic policies which will over time, ameliorate the problems we can do so little to influence currently.

 

You really must try to control that imagination of yours, I wasn't mocking anyone, just reminiscing over good times we had.