Human life does not begin at conception or birth.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by bricklayer, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Donor

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    Human life does not begin at conception or birth. Human life is continued through conceptions and births. Life does not come from death, and it certainly doesn't come from nothing. At no point is an unborn human life not a human life.

    It can be argued that a human life is not yet, or no longer, a person having intellect, emotion and volition. On the other hand it can also be argued that there is non-human life that is personal having intellect, emotion and volition. My dog demonstrates personality having intellect, emotion and volition.

    Murder is not the unjust killing of a person, as animal rights activists would have you believe. Murder is the unjust killing of a human being. Murder is the unjust ending of a human life.

    If we are to assume that there is a time to kill, the questions then become who kills whom, why, when, where and how? At first blush, one might assume that unborn babies, before they have even had an opportunity to do anything right wrong, might be might be the wrong people to kill. On the other hand, if not for legal abortion, there would now be among us, just here in the US, another sixty one million people all raised by mothers who would have just as soon killed them had it been legal. To me, that sounds like the making of a disaster. So, perhaps abortion does kill the right people.

    Death to the unwanted. Keep abortion legal. After all, it's only murder if we say it is. Unless, and until then, human life in the womb is only worth what that womb's owner says its worth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
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  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Like livestock, as far as the gubmint is concerned nothing exists until its ass hits the table and it can be assigned a ssn and set up for tax purposes.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    Were you trying to say that the beginning of human life is a gradual progression between conception and birth?
    (i.e. that it happens some time between then but it doesn't happen all at once)

    To me, that sounds like some sort of dystopian future where the people are having to continually eliminate a segment of society, supposedly for the overall wellbeing of the group.

    ( Star Trek "A Taste of Armageddon" or "Half a Life" )
    Maybe Carousel in Logan's Run ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Empty assertions backed by nothing more than detached intellectualism.
     
  5. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    Abortion committed in the name of sparing the unborn a life of hardship is ignorant of the countless impoverished folks who either manage to become wealthy despite their meager beginnings or die happy despite a life of poverty. Both occur with enough regularity for hope to be reasonable, and life to be preserved and respected.

    Abortion committed in the name of vanity or sparing yourself a life of hardship of raising a child is selfish. Its putting yourself before another.

    Abortion committed in the name of preventing your likely death is self defense. The unborn is an unwitting enemy in this case. Its you or them, and choosing you is entirely reasonable.

    Ignorance, selfishness and self defense are all lawful in this country for a reason- individualism. And so should be abortion remain lawful. No one says you have to like abortion (and beware any that do!), and we should all be fighting to make its alternatives more appealing and decrease the frequency with which abortion is chosen. But to restrict abortion would be to restrict ignorance, selfishness and self defense. Its one more step in the direction of forcing the individual to sacrifice themselves for another- for the greater good, for the collective. That is not America.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but by like token allowing abortion primarily based on the good of the collective would also diametrically be opposed to those values, no?

    So then, all we're really left with is the independence of the woman, if we are to take that argument and be logically consistent with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    How is 'allowing abortion primarily based on the good of the collective'?
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Would you label this a fact or an opinion?
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    I meant, if the reason you are allowing abortion has to do with the good of the collective, then the argument is ultimately self-defeating, according to the terms you set out. (Because your whole argument was based on the premise that no one should be made to sacrifice for the collective)
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  10. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If you are against abortion then all women should be constantly pregnant from about 14 to 40 years of age.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    If you view abortion as your primary form of birth control.
     
  12. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    Do you think people have souls?
     
  13. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    All the more reason to educate women and make birth control more accessible.
     
  14. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    Correct! Well said.
     
  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    Thats not what I meant. Abortion serves the individual over the collective. Restricting it serves the collective at the individuals sacrifice.

    The only instance where this is reversed is in the dynamic of population control, which is a flawed premise because its relative to resource scarcity which is an artificial manufacture of the elite.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  16. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    Hmm, only to a degree. Don't believe me? Go ahead and grab a shovel and go get me some crude oil. A need for extraction and refinement of resources , itself, lends to scarcity. Who is going to do it, if they do not profit? Expensive gasoline is preferable to no gasoline at the pumps.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds like the ultimate female individual liberty to me. A person surely owns oneself.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are confusing the use of the word human as a descriptive adjective (human cell, human heart, human life, human feces) and the noun form (a human, a living human )

    You are completely confused in relation to the metabolic perspective on "when human life begins". You are correct that it states that human life exists prior to conception. This is obvious - the sperm is "human life".

    Where you go off the rails is in claiming that human life "the sperm for example" is a human. The flaw in your argument is the conflation of the two.

    Just because something is "human life" .. does not make that something a human - by any stretch of the imagination.
     
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    Unless there's someone else inside them.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    Human life isn't only dependent on what the mother says it is.

    If the woman suffers a tragic miscarriage or if she chooses abortion, that doesn't change the nature of what that life was.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018

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