I am not impressed with Judaism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Mar 6, 2023.

  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since logic is the basis of the OP argument I’d like to point out four mistakes in it:

    1). Christianity and Islam are derivatives of Judaism. To put it in other terms, Christianity and Islam are cults of Judaism so despite religion (itself) being little more than superstition at least Judaism is true to itself.

    2). Judaism isn’t a race.

    3). ”The Chosen People” doesn’t mean what you probably think it means.

    4). According to Judaism all people of the earth can find favour from the creator (ambiguous) without following orthodox Jewish practices >>> see number 3.


    *** I am not praising Judaism. I am merely defending Judaism against Christianity and Islam. If you’re going to believe in hokus-pokus it seems more sensible to stop amending it and just believe in the original form of it instead. If you believe (or scoff at) wearing a hat to please the creator then there is even less logic in believing that taking it off is going to open the gates of heaven. :cynic:
     
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  2. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Someone should have clued Abraham in on that since he almost off’d his son as a human sacrifice.
     
  3. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding of religion seems to be centered around Christianity. Not from a theological point of view, of course. But you seem to judge all religions based on what you know about Christianity. Almost all other posters here are doing exactly the same mistake.

    I'll give you an example.

    The Talmud teaches that saving a life is more important than obeying a religious law. Why? Well, God wants all human beings to live by his laws. Live by his law, not die by his law. Transgressing in order to save a human life means giving that person, even if the person is not currently living by God's law, a chance at redemption, while obeying the law and letting the person die takes away any chance of redemption.

    Please tell me if you find this particular value unnecessary.
     
  4. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Well, exactly. Their sense of being born into the priesthood makes them no better than any other religious people on Earth and hence nothing to admire here.

    Also, I don't give Jews credit for the salvation thing. Mormons are basically Universalists (salvation to all) but I hold them in no higher regard to fire and brimstone preachers like Steven Anderson. Having a spiritual hierarchy and being a high control group still makes me less inclined to be your friend let alone admire you.

    It would be better if I did think Judaism is nothing more than that. I'd be less inclined to be a raging anti-Semite.

    Well, it was 3 Jews by the names of Yeshua, Paul and Peter who said it (Judaism as a nation am I right? ;)).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2023
  5. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Like I said earlier, I don't give a sect or religion brownie points for making salvation easier. A deity with a spiritual hierarchy (a tiered system as opposed to equality) with strict lifestyle rules is not a deity worth worshipping.
     
  6. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the "no better" part, but I think there's something to admire in every culture, including religions, of every people.

    Now you talk as if all Jews think and act the same, as if Judaism miraculously turns all Jews into a monolith. This is a slippery slope.

    Conspiracy theories?

    Nope. This is the Christian founding myth, not history. I don't believe that Jesus and the twelve apostles ever existed.
     
  7. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm not following, could you elaborate please? I don't think I have given much detail on what I base my judgements on.

    Well, your explanation of this value contains references to following religious law, so I could argue that the value is unnecessary because without religious law, I wouldn't have to make the choice. If I instead interpret this value as "any rule (or any phrasing of a law) can be superseded if more important things are on the line" (like killing in self-defence), then I say this is not a religious virtue, but a human one that religions hi-jacked.
     
  8. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    You admitted you don't know much about religions, and you live in a predominantly Christian country. Ergo...

    I'm Jewish, and atheist my whole life, but growing up in a predominantly Christian country made me look at other religions through a Christian lens...until I understood my mistake.

    Why are you trying to separate human values from religious values? Aren't religions human inventions? Aren't religious values born in the same human minds as non-religious values? They're all human values, actually.

    Furthermore, how can you say with certainty which values were born from religious thought, and which owe nothing to religion?
     
  9. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't think I said that. I know stuff about religions, including but not limited to Christianity, but whether that's "much" or "little" kinda depends on what you're comparing to. I said there's always room for improvement in how broad one's understanding is, I wouldn't want to be overconfident, especially given that don't know what you're comparing to.

    I don't think I've been trying to separate them. The fact that there is overlap is a part of my point. Religion does not score a point if they say something anyone could figure out.

    I don't think I said anything about "born from" or "owe nothing to" religion. A value can have been first thought of in a religious context, but still be a good rule, and humans wouldn't throw it out even if we threw out religion.

    I am speaking on one hand about values that humans more or less would agree to, even if they did not have religious backing, like "abstain from taking life" (caveats may apply). Religion hasn't done anything impressive wrt these values.

    On the other hand, I talk about values which we would not agree to without religious incitement, like "do not eat shellfish" or "kill polytheists where you find them". Their addition is not impressive, so religion hasn't done anything impressive there either.

    So, it's not that I claim to be able to tell the difference between the two, I'm saying it doesn't matter which category a religious value is in, religion wasn't impressive in either case.
     
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Didn't I already respond to this twice?

    The OP said he was deliberately not talking about the Israel connection. I responded to his OP. Either you're missing my point, since you're bringing up stuff I explicitly disregarded, or you're arguing that we shouldn't have disregarded it, at which point you'll have to take it up with the OP.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I surrender.

    It is of value to know the philosophy of the root documents of Judaism, regardless of the actions being promoted by the world center of Judaism that has such power in the Israeli government.
     
  12. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    The world center of Judaism? What's that?
     
  13. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    That could be THE most egocentric comment I've ever read on one of these forums. Imagine standing in judgement of a world religion that is the moral foundation of much of Western Civilization [and one that has been around nearly six millennia].

    The complexity of religion and its influence on human culture is so vast that any one person can contribute just a minuscule amount of commentary. Yet, you are not impressed?

    If I may ask, what does impress you?
     
  14. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything to admire in Afghan tribal culture to name but one example. It is Afghanistan that spawned the evil that is the Taliban.

    Clarification? OK. I don't hold religious Jews in any higher regard to fire and brimstone preachers.

    Well, Paul existed anyway. Not to go too far off on a tangent, but as someone who has declared himself to NOT be a follower of Yeshua, I believe he existed but that he is almost none of the things the New Testament claims he is. He's just some preacher who left an extremely strong impression on the charismatic Paul. The reason I believe Yeshua existed is because for his myth to be THAT powerful, the odds are it starts with a kernel of truth/fact.

    I admire how the Chinese invented paper and print. It's thanks to them that I have my books. I also admire how the Greeks thought up the concept of democracy (though admittedly flawed in the early stages, but it was the start of it all), something irreconcilable with the Bible (slaves should obey their masters, Catholic submission to the church etc.) despite all this talk of free will.
     
  15. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Nope. The Taliban came from the tribal region of Pakistan during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Afghan tribal culture didn't spawn the Taliban.

    Religious Jews are not a community. The ultra-Orthodox with the black costumes and hats are not representative of religious Jews. The fire and brimstone preachers are not representative of Christians. I share your lack of high regard for extremists, but I don't see all religious people as extremists.

    The best way to understand Jesus's story (not Yeshua - there are no sources for this name) is to look at contemporary (with the supposed historical Jesus) religions. The cult of Demeter was widespread in the Mediterranean territories, for instance. Roman emperors participated in her mysteries alongside common people and slaves, but nobody believes today that Demeter and her daughter really existed.

    Jesus, whose body is assimilated with bread and blood with wine, was clearly an agrarian god, like Demeter and Bacchus/Dionysus. Osiris died and came back to life, so did Ishtar, Orpheus, Dionysus, and Persephone (Demeter's daughter). Nobody believes all those really existed.

    The reason Jesus and Paul seem so powerful today is that early Christians systematically destroyed pagan religions and pagan schools of thought throughout their sphere of influence, as well as Christian sects deemed heretic. There are no other competitors to Jesus and Paul left.

    Judaism put an end to human sacrifice. I admire that.

    Don't you admire teddy bears, ballpoint pens, mobile phones, video games, and google? I do. Oh, and jeans, too.

    I think there's something to admire in every culture.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are not out to impress or convert you, they just want to practice their religion.
     
  17. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    If it was not the Chinese, it would have been somebody else, but credit is due. The Tang dynasty was an era of great progress. Again, give some credit to the Greeks, but these are ideas that have changed profoundly over the centuries.

    The difference with Judaism [Judeo-Christianity] is that the basic tenets have served as the foundation for Western civilization and its institutions over several millennia [and still holds true today]. Other than prostitution, it's hard to come up with an force that has had such staying power. As many flaws as religion has, you have to stand in awe at what the effect it has had on culture throughout time.
     
  18. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    OK you've made your point, but no I don't admire teddy bears.

    Religion is the imitator, not the innovator.

     
  19. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I get it. I do not consider myself a religious person but that does not mean I can't respect the grounding it has provided people throughout history. Remember, up until the end of the 19th century, life was extremely difficult for EVERYBODY. Religion [the intellectualization of spirituality] was going to happen because man needed it to happen. The essence of religion is another matter and to where religion actually points [although very few see this at all].
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That was a powerful parable. Abraham was without children for an incredibly long time and when he finally had a son relatively late in life - basically, his last chance at progeny. God tested his faith by telling Abraham to sacrifice that son in a blatant act of murder.

    God called it off, of course. But, the test was about as serious as possible.

    You can't claim that Abraham wasn't "clued in". He proved totally dedicated to his god.
     
  21. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    So, point taken about having something to admire in all cultures. But I'm not letting go of the fact that the Old Testament is not MY story let alone a story I have any love for.

    So the next time somebody quotes the Old Testament (especially the first 5 books) to me, I will say "Don't read that to me" and if I am asked why not, I will say "Because I'm not Jewish"
     

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