If Jesus died for my sins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    You sound like a fundie anti-semite Jehovahs Witness.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  2. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I haven't criticized Jews. I merely challenged your assertion that Judaism and Christianity are nearly the same religion. Actually I admire Jews for their spirit and intellect. For instance, they have blessed the world a great deal of late in science, medicine, and technology, since their rebirth as a nation. And I accredit them for the Bible as well as for Christianity which would not exist without them. Jesus and the first Christian Church were all Jews. Were it not for Judaism which begat Christianity, most of us would be dark spirited, heathenistic, superstitious, violent, idol worshippers. If I say I don't understand why Jews threw away their most precious gem, I am not condemning them. I guess I'm saying that I love them. Many Christians feel this way...beholden. No one has a say into which circumstance they are born. So no one can fault todays Jews or any group for that matter for something a small number of individuals chose to do 2000 years ago. Not to mention that if God would lay down his life for them, then who are any of us to do less in that regard. Neither are we greater than God to presume to judge in his stead. Anyway, that's what I think.
     
  3. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If there is a God, why would he give everyone a soul?
     
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  4. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The biblical fairy tale also says that people will judge angels and that they are to judge people in their congregation and to kick the bad ones to the curb. Besides, if you don't judge people you could associate with evil ones and end up in hell for following their bad examples.

    Who will judge the twelve tribes of Israel?
     
  5. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Christian baptism ritual was adopted from the Hindu ritual of washing away sins in the Ganges River.
     
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  6. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like a ton of superstition to me.
     
  7. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    Are not "most of us" all of those things even with Judaism, Christianity and all the other religions combined?
    Maybe except for yourself and few others.....even most Christians could be compared to "dark spirited, heathenistic, superstitious, violent, idol worshippers".
     
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  8. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't remember what is written about judging the 12 tribes...
    but I would suggest that they let @it's just me judge them....he's really good at it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  9. RoccoR

    RoccoR Active Member Past Donor

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    RE: If Jesus died for my sins
    SUBTOPIC: The Character of a Deity?
    ⁜→ it's just me, et al,

    BLUF: In the Abrahamic Religions, the Supreme Being is not (according to the teachings) so forgiving.

    (PREFACE)

    I'm not a theologian. And it is these unresolved questions such as this, that turned me towards agnosticism.

    (COMMENT)

    This is a multifaceted paradox.

    Why does the Supreme Being need my acknowledgment of its existence?

    Why does the Supreme Being need my praise or worship?

    Is the fact that I am a sinner in the eyes of the Abrahamic Religions mean that I am flawed?

    ◈ People who fall from grace go to hell.
    ◈ The Supreme Being banishes the creations that fall from grace (manufacturers defect).
    ◈ The Supreme Being cannot make a mistake.
    ◈ The Supreme Being intentionally created flawed creatures (People).
    ◈ Those creations that fall from grace go to hell because of the Supreme Beings imperfect creation of People.​

    From here, the number of observations seriously question the Omnipotence, Omniscience, and the Infallibility of the Abrahamic Supreme Being.

    Another issue in this same set of questions is: Can the "Will of God" be wrong?

    ◈ IF the Supreme Being "wills" that his creations should praise it, can reality do anything but set those conditions as a product of the people The Supreme Being created?
    ◈ Can the Supreme Being believe that a fact is true when in reality the fact is wrong?
    ◈ IF the Supreme Being is the "Ultimate Creator," THEN why did the Supreme Being set the conditions for illness, famine, mental illness, etc...?​

    (ANSWER)

    Under the theory that the Supreme Being is all-powerful, all-knowing, and infallible, YES! The Supreme Being can do anything it "Wills." But then, that is further evidence that questions the benevolence of the Supreme Being.

    (END-THOUGHT)

    All this presupposes that the Supreme Being "Willed" a "Hell" into existence and there is actually something to send (something we call a soul) to "Hell."

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
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  10. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    To one degree or another, yes I would agree with you. But imo, Jesus's teachings are a light to the world, and to one degree or another, depending on the individual, and either directly or indirectly, help shape the course of humanity, individually and collectively. For instance, I think Jesus's teachings helped inspire and bring about the birth of the USA, because over the many centuries it affected and conditioned people to that end or point. But even at that, it takes people time to adjust and catch up to the truth. I mean, we enslaved our fellow man even while proclaiming that all men are created equal and endowed with rights. How dark is that. Nevertheless, God is merciful and brings us thru or out of the dark with truthful concepts, rather than murder us in the dark for our wickedness. He knows our blindness, our ignorance, our hypocrisy and such. But his plan is to save us in his own time and judgment. If time by time, we see his hand at work in human affairs, it is not a slip up on his part. It is a knowing smile and salve that melts hearts and quiets the storm, as if to say, be patient, have faith and fear not. I am convinced that God is real, that he really does love everyone, and that our salvation or the betterment of our spirits is his whole purpose. That is why were it not for the Jews, Judaism which begat Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ, we would all be forever in a dark state, without light or hope. God has made an example of his people, the Jews, and blessed the world thru them. And so, imo we have something of a debt of gratitude to Israel to pray for her, as one can give no greater than the treasures from one heart...to incline her head to your heart as it were, and sing a song to the heavens for her, to cloak, to fill and to heal, that she remembers her God who has never forgotten her. Israel is not alone.
     
  11. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    I do not disagree with your thoughts on Jesus or Judaism.
    But if our societies still continue toward a path of destruction....then what good are your religious heroes?
     
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  12. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    There were many wise teachings other than the Old Testament....some of which may
    have been attributed to Judaism...but not necessarily their true origin.

    Wise teachings like those from the Buddha and Lao Tzu are every bit as effective
    as those in your Old and New Bibles.....if they are lived
    That we would be in worse shape without Christianity and Judaism is very difficult to prove...
    we might even be (have been) better off without them both.
    There is too much emotion involved in the Bible(s) that may be what makes them more dangerous than useful.
     
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  13. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    You are a good person Gabmux. You ask excellent questions, very diplomatically. I have gone way out on a limb in my posts, and you have not cut it off. I thank you for that kindness. Ironically I agree with everything in your post about religions and teachings. I guess anything can be had for good or bad. Even Jesus was accused of blasphemy. Then there were the Salem witch trials, the Branch Davidians, and The Peoples Temple at Jonestown. Not to mention the innumerable atrocities committed thru the ages in Gods name. It's hard to say how, why, and when things go sideways.
     
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  14. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    Error
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  15. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thanks for kind reply...I find much wisdom in your posts.
    Me thinks that if more could perceive your way...perhaps the Lord's Prayer would be realized...
    "Thy kingdom come...thy will be done...on earth as it is in Heaven."
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  16. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Part of being born again is trying hard to obey Christ. If you keep on sinning and don't even care, then you aren't really a real Christian.
     
  17. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Nope. The gospel writers had to lie to convince people that Jesus fulfilled the so-called prophecies.

    That's why Matthew and Luke provide conflicting genealogies, in an attempt to convince people that Jesus was of the House of David.

    Unfortunately, it is Ephraim who is the true rightful heir of Israel and not Judah. The Yahweh-fanatics Hilkiah and Jeremiah lied in order to convince people that Judah was the lawful heir and the gospel writers were too stupid to know that.

    Gods are immortal, so your claim is an oxymoron.

    Not that it matters since the Yahweh-thing can fart out another son or a daughter anytime he freaking feels like it, so, no, I don't get all teary-eyed over the idiotic phrase "only begotten son."

    Not only that, but the Hebrew texts state quite clearly that Yahweh had other sons long before Jesus, so John lied.
     
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  18. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    Perhaps the concept of "born again" doesn't require obeying "Christ" or anyone else for that matter...
    The idea that you need "someone" or "something else" to know who you are...
    is at least part of the reason religions fail.
    I think it probably safe to say there are no "real Christians".
    If humans actually followed what Christ preached...there would be no churches and no religions at all.
     
  19. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I'm not Christian but I do understand what they believe. Jesus very clearly outlined what it means to be born again and part of being born again is having that deep passion to follow the example of Christ. If you don't even care about what Jesus is saying, then you really don't have faith. Its fake faith to trick God into getting you into heaven. God won't fall for that.
     
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  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Wow, they sure fooled a lot of people, huh.....most astonishingly fellow Jews in the know? My point was that Judaism and Christianity are not the same, anymore than the donkey upon which Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

    I agree somewhat that Jesus was immortal with the power to lay down his life and take it up again, in type, putting away sin and being reborn. That's why he said that no man takes his life from him, but that he lays it down of his own accord. However, they did murder, revile, mock, ridicule and crucify him in their hearts as well as physically, to which he submitted. Your animus is confounding to me, as there is nothing offensive about the life and mission of Jesus Christ, but maybe for the stripes he bore and the utter wickedness his life drew upon him from so many. It had to be that he died for all...you, me, everyone. Imagine being loathed, reviled, and absolutely hated, simply for doing good and serving. Like Isaiah said, "The chastisement of our peace was upon him". And even were he just a man. Is that any way to treat a man who served the weak and spoke truth to power?
     
  21. RoccoR

    RoccoR Active Member Past Donor

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    I guess you could go back 80 to 100 generations back
     
  22. RoccoR

    RoccoR Active Member Past Donor

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    RE: If Jesus died for my sins
    SUBTOPIC: The Character of a Deity?
    ⁜→ Injeun, et al,

    BLUF: This is a paradox that must be addressed before you can move forward.

    (COMMENT)

    IF you assign "immortality" as a characteristic to the Supreme Being, THEN no matter how powerful (omnipotent) the deity may be, the characteristic prevents self-destruction (suicide).

    IF self-destruction (suicide) were possible, THEN the Supreme Being would not be "immortal."

    This paradox raises the question again, what does being a deity mean?

    Just my two-cents...
    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  23. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I meant immortal in the sense that he held the authority to heal himself and prevent injury to himself from people or accidents. But his body was very mortal. That's my understanding. He allowed himself to be crucified and his body to perish by choice.
     
  24. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus character was not a Christian. There were no such things as Christians when he was alive.
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    That idea is based upon the First Commandment since the Jesus character is supposed to be God. Consequently, if a person disobeys Jesus that person is elevating himself to godhood, thereby placing him as a God above the Jesus character. Since no one has ever believed in the Jesus fairytale it is silly for anyone to claim to worship him.
     

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