I'm an Objectivist. Debate me.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Appleo, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's mercifully short compared to Atlas Shrugged. I have always marveled at people such as yourself who were able to read Rand's magnum opus in its entirety. I'm more a fan of her ideas than her writing.
     
  2. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    LOL, that "shot heard around the world"? By kings and tyrants? Your take is topsy-turvy, as is your moniker.

    I'm not a conservative--they are no longer intellectually relevant;

    I know about the homestead riots, it doesn't diminish his achievements.

    All tribalism is prehistoric and has no place in Western Civilization--the Indian's tragedy is their leaders' refusal to understand this; their sin was in taking the federal government's handouts.

    Foreign spies stealing nuclear secrets? What fantasy is this? And communist? No. Never.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  3. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I said socialists/communists (aka "progressives") are Flat-Earthers.

    I never stated or suggested that anyone or everyone who isn't an Objectivist (which would include myself) is a Commie and a Flat Earther.

    Oh, please - she was nothing like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, nor would she have slaughtered millions like those collectivist monsters did.

    Are her ideas and philosophy extreme? I can see why many people, most particularly Leftists, would consider them such. As for myself, I'm not one of her dogmatic followers. Absolutes don't appeal to me.

    Franklin probably would have made a fine president.

    Unfortunately, I don't think great men like him aspire to the presidency anymore, Aleksander. For the most part, it seems the only people who are interested in the job these days are ambitious egomaniacs (ex., Trump) and power-hungry megalomaniacs who want to control everybody's lives (ex., Obama). Of course, there are a few exceptions, such as Rand Paul.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  4. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've always been dumbfounded about people who can put it down after the first paragraph. And her ideas are her writings.
     
  5. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm talking purely in terms of craft, and I suspect that Ms. Rosenbaum would admit that she was no Shakespeare or Faulkner.

    That being said, I still enjoyed Anthem immensely and it's obvious that my opinion of her literary talent hasn't diminished my opinion of her as a thinker. Not only did she have an enormous influence on my own thinking, that influence was enormously positive.
     
  6. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    WARNING: PLOT SPOILERS


    I'm sure she wouldn't even have entertained the question. Additionally, her ideas are powerful because of her writing, and lastly:

    From Anthem's first sentence, "It is a sin to write this" to John Galt's last words, "We are going back to the world.", she has used her literary skills to create songs, sonatas, concerti, and symphonies in the written language of English. She, better than anyone else I've ever read--and believe me, I have read thousands of books covering every genre--has mastered the opening sentence, the hilarity of humor, the drama of conflicting values, the precision of dialogue, the progression of plot, the integration of theme and story, and the exhilaration of plot resolution.

    Such as:

    Anthem: "It is a sin to write this". Equality 7-2521 first vision of the Golden One. His submission of his work to the World Council of Scholars. The final names of Prometheus and Gaea. The oath he takes at the end of his discovery.

    We the Living: "Petrograd smelt of carbolic acid." Kira's second meeting with Leo. The first meeting between Kira and Andrei; and their final meeting. Her mother's cough, and Leo's at the end of the chapter. Irina's and Sasha's death ride to the Gulags in Siberia. Kira's final words as she lay dying.

    The Fountainhead: "Howard Roark laughed."; His evening talk with Keating. His first interaction with Dominque. The Temple to the Human Spirit: "He thought that exaltation means joy and that joy is man’s birthright. He thought that a place built as a setting for man is a sacred place. That is what Howard Roark though of man and of exaltation.” – Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead. His defense at his trial; his glance at Gail Whyand; His pride standing tall on his pedestal, a skyscraper.

    Atlas Shrugged: "Who is John Galt." The childhood of innocence of idealism; the adult discovery of the corrupt world. The night of the stranger at the door of Dagny's John Galt Line office. The first train ride of the John Galt Line. The tunnel disaster, and the ideas that made it happen. The money speech; the strike speech. The steel furnace disaster; the rescue from the State Institutes torture chamber. The dollar sign.

    All of these are present with such literary skill that it takes one's soul on a journey that no one ever knew existed, or could ever exist. This woman knew how to write better than anyone in existence. She was to literature what Beethoven, Bach, Romanov, Rossini and Tchaikovsky combined were to romantic music. She was to philosophy what Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, and Einstein were to science. The human being owes her a debt of gratitude, and nod of the head and tip of the hat salute to the immense gift of artistic pleasure she has given the world.

    For you to say you don't like her writing style, is for me, as if you were saying, "I don't like gourmet dinners; McDonald's will do just fine."

    Or, I'd rather fly United couch
    [​IMG]
    Than Emirates Airlines first class.[​IMG]


    But, I suppose, as in all art; beauty is in the eye of the beholder:


    And she's 11


    Will the world let her survive? I doubt it. But I have grown very cynical in my old age--partly from my own sins and regrets, and partly because of the culture I live in--so I may be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  7. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    The same Rand Paul whose Healthcare Plan is to lock the ER doors to anyone with bad credit?
     
  8. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ah, the "Rand Paul Healthcare Plan According to Aleksander Ulyanov"....:roll:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  9. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let us hope so.
     
  10. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    objectivism is like any other political/economic philosophy. It is deeply and fatally flawed, but still has some merit. The key is finding the right balance between different philosophies, to fill the parts where the others fail.
     
  11. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Just jumping in here to point out we had someone like that, namely Ronald Reagan, but you didn't like him, either.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why not? Criticism and comparison comes with the territory.

    I suspect she would merely point out that Shakespeare and Faulkner were different writers whose styles suited/served their own unique purposes, as her style suited/served her own. This is nothing a writer or artist would be uncomfortable and insecure about.

    I would argue that her ideas were powerful regardless of which medium she chose to convey them, and I suspect you would agree with me on that.

    Absolutely.
     
  13. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First: Watch her Phil Donahue interview in the 70's; then ask yourself again if she'd entertain that question.

    As to the rest?
    Misses the point and evades the obvious. And I never understand why.
     
  14. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm sorry. But how bizarre, borrowed from Bizarro and OMC. You know, different but alike. I mean, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Sounds like a Pandora conundrum

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  15. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    It’s just reality. No 1 philosophy is 100% correct.
     
  16. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmmm. How should I take that...The number one philosophy, which in my estimation is Objectivism, is correct. Or? No one philosophy is correct, including the one you're espousing right now, ideological agnosticism. I think I know;

     
  17. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Ignoring the flaws in your philosophy doesn’t make them go away.

    I’m a fan of objectivism by the way. Not Rand. I was introduced to it via Terry Goodkind in the Sword of Truth series.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  18. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, all I can say is how bizarre.
     
  19. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Yes, it is quite bizzarre to not see the inherent flaws in your philosophy, after they’ve been pointed out.
     
  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Not so, I liked and admired Reagan and have said so here before.. He wasn't terribly smart but a President doesn't really have to be. He did have what Eisenhower, (a very smart man) said was the only real necessity, which was integrity. He had enough of that, in fact, that he could get away with being Machiavellian when required, not at all an easy thing.
     
  21. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    While I still stand by my statement that Rand was seriously flawed as a fiction writer, (and a person, but who isn't?) it should be pointed out that she did pen one of the 10 best lines there are outside of Shakespeare. John Galt's reply to :"What will you do?" When he leaves the factory that went commie.

    "I will stop the engine that moves the world"

    Don't get excited. I think "Greatness will not be denied" is among the 10 too, and that's from a Playstation commercial
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  22. Appleo

    Appleo Newly Registered

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    I love Ayn Rand. I think she is an amazing and heroic woman.

     
  23. Appleo

    Appleo Newly Registered

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    Thank you for the reading list!

    But I agree with all that you said, and the quote on responsibility was pretty funny, but so true. At least when you take full responsibility for the things that happen to you, you start to have control over your life. You can actually do something about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  24. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I know I’m going to regret this, probably big time. Because, honestly, asserting Ayn Rand had holes in her philosophy is as bold as a 5th grader saying Einstein made mistakes in physics, and ought to be dismissed outright as pretentious posturing. But, as you are smarter than 5th grader, go ahead, shoot. What were her errors? And what would be the proper formulations.

    And please remember, Rand’s philosophy is about living life on earth as a reasoning being; not reaching Nirvana, nothingness, or the afterlife, i.e., life as a rational being, not as a mystic guru.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  25. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    you've had 29 pages showing you the flaws. I know you simply hand waive them away and pretend they don't exist (which is counter to your own philosophy, lol) but that doesn't make them go away.

    here's a good place to start as well..............................
    https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-main-flaws-in-Objectivism
     

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