Impeachment Document Released

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by HumbledPi, Dec 3, 2019 at 4:16 PM.

  1. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    http://readerrant.capitolhillblue.c...Board=92&Number=318595&what=showflat&fpart=56

    This is the AP release of the impeachment document just released.

    “The Trump-Ukraine Impeachment inquiry Report” provides a detailed, if stunning, account of a shadow diplomacy run by Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani, resulting in layers of allegations, which can be distilled into specific acts like bribery, extortion or obstruction, and the more amorphous allegation that Trump abused his power by putting his interests above the nation."
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 4:16 PM
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  2. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    The Table of Contents pretty much says it all. The Democrats are going to base this impeachment solely on the Ukraine scandal and not on the other instances of obstruction of justice in the Mueller Report.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, like the Mueller report, they can't prove the charge so will focus on obstruction. Again, wanting to hang someone for not wanting to be hanged for a crime that didn't happen.
     
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  4. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not that meuller couldn't prove the charges, he had no mandate to issue indictments of a sitting president. But you knew that.

    As for the initial crime there is plenty of evidence of the crime and when the others involved in this administration wide conspiracy to dig up dirt on Biden and redirect "meddling" blame on ukraine.

    Its only going to get worse from here for dear leader donnie. His performance on the world stage sure as hell ain't helping.
     
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  5. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    We knew this was coming and the vote was by party line. No surprise here. This was totally expected. No big deal in the grand scheme of things. No changing of anyone's view of Trump for or against.

    Public response to impeachment hearings since their beginning. Comparing Trump’s approval ratings, percentage of those who want Trump impeached and removed along with those who don’t. As you can see Trump’s approval rating hasn’t really moved. Then there is the party break down. Democrats totally for impeachment and removal, Republicans totally against. Independents split right down the middle. Democrats for impeachment and removal have risen 5 point since the start of the hearings. Republicans against impeachment and removal has risen 8 points since the beginning. Independents, in favor of impeachment and removal have rose 6 points as has also independent against impeachment and removal. Bottom line, these hearing hasn’t moved the needle except make each side harden their position on Trump.

    Impeachment hearings began on 13 Nov 2019 vs. 3 Dec 2019

    Trump’s approval 13 Nov 43.9%, 3 Dec 43.0%


    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html


    13 Nov Democrats for impeachment and removal 82%, 3 Dec Democrats for impeachment and removal 87%.

    13 Nov Republicans for impeachment and removal 12%, 3 Dec Republicans for impeachment and removal 9%.

    13 Nov Independents for impeachment and removal 38%, 3 Dec Independents for impeachment and removal 44%.

    13 Nov Democrats against impeachment and removal 6%, 3 Dec Democrats against impeachment and removal 8%.

    13 Nov Republicans against impeachment and removal 80%, 3 Dec Republicans against impeachment and removal 88%.

    13 Nov Independents against impeachment and removal 39%, 3 Dec Independents against impeachment and removal 45%.


    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...ment_and_removal_of_president_trump-6957.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 10:17 PM
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  6. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    It’s important to remember that even in Watergate, it took more than a year of investigation, and a lot of evidence against Nixon, to reach the point where Republicans were voting for impeachment. According to a poll conducted by Gallup just days before the vote, only 38 percent of Americans were in favor of impeachment. Then, that following spring saw a stunning 30-point drop in Nixon’s support starting around when one of the people charged with breaking into the Democratic National Committee headquarters confessed to a judge that he and the other conspirators had been pressured to stay silent.

    Many Republicans generally saw the Nixon inquiry as legitimate, but that didn’t mean they had lost faith in Nixon. Many remained vocal in support of him, insisting he was innocent. The GOP defense of Nixon boiled down to party loyalty.

    Republicans are facing a similar dilemma: Do they ignore party allegiance and turn on the president, or double down on party loyalty? So far it appears to be the latter.
     
  7. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That’s the feeble excuse for not finding any evidence.
     
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  8. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Lots of the establishment folk are all a glow this morning about the release of the report. Lots of "slam dunking" back slapping etc this morning.. ignoring one teansey little bit of the story, no factual basis for any crime or misdemeanor having been committed. Democrats, again, get to the plate, swing, and miss. And while they diddle away sowing their own self destruction the rest of the country ignores them.
     
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  9. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Not sure where you're getting your numbers from but your links definitely are not it.

    Your first links (Trumps approval) most recent poll is dated Dec 2nd while the rest are dated around Nov 24,25,26.

    Your second links (impeachment) most recent poll is dated Nov 26.

    And none of them show anything based on political stance.
     
  10. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    During Watergate, everyone knew the burglary had happen and CREEP did it.The question that was unknown was did Nixon know about it. What got Nixon wasn't the burglary itself, it was the cover up and payment of hush money after he found out about it. There was and probably still is a huge question mark whether Nixon authorized and knew about it before or was guilty of the cover up and hush money only. The latter was for sure, the former, never proven. Once the tapes were released, it absolutely proved the latter.

    One must not confuse the Watergate hearings which went on for about a year and a half to the impeachment hearings which started in the House in May of 1974. Then on 28,29,30 July 1974 the articles of impeachment were passed by the house.

    Watergate was easy for everyone to understand, everyone could easily relate to a burglary. A Ukraine phone call isn't especially the the president of the Ukraine says Trump never threaten him or asked him. Watergate was a heck of a lot less partisan also. Not to mention the Democrats who controlled the senate 58-42 needed only 9 GOP senators to agree. Today the Democrats need at least 20 if not 22 if as I suspect 2 Democrats will vote not to convict.

    Then unlike 1974, you have a lot of folks just not interested in the hearing. Question 13. Watched public hearings Did you watch any part of the public impeachment hearings, even if just highlights in the news?

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/a10nw9wbas/econTabReport.pdf

    Interesting to note that 54% of independents haven't even bothered to catch the highlights on the news. Of the 46% who did, 31% caught just the highlights in the news. Question 14. If you look at both questions, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that only hard core Democrats and Republicans really care.

    That wasn't the case back in 1974. But we'll see. It is in my opinion the the Democrats have to convince the majority of Americans that this isn't just a partisan political vendetta, that Trump has indeed committed crimes worth of impeachment. Back in 1974 the hard evidence was there, the tapes among other things of the cover up. roughly on a 60-30 margin all Americans favored impeachment and removal which included 31% of Republicans and 55% of Independents. Another difference is back in 1974 44% of all Americans identified themselves as Democrats vs. 23% as Republicans. That was quite a different political era. No polarization or ultra high partisanship.
     
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  11. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    Simple, on 3 Nov I went to the links and used RCP averages.
     
  12. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    It's a sad but true fact that the majority of Trump supporters, and not only his base but several U.S. Republican Congressmen have stated on camera, Lindsey Graham being one, that they did not read any of the testimonies when they were released and had no intention of doing so. They also stated an unwillingness to watch any of the live testimonies. That's just unacceptable to me. These are U.S. duly elected men that are in charge of our government and to intentionally turn a blind eye and deaf ear to anything having to do with this impeachment hearing should be an impeachable offense for them in my opinion. They are simply refusing to do the job they were elected to do.

    The public on the other hand, are not interested in facts, they don't want facts because facts are irrefutable and in direct antagonism to what they choose to believe. Like the Jack Nicholson line in 'A Few Good Men', "you don't want the truth, you can't handle the truth". Nevertheless, the law moves on and beyond party politics and is set in stone that no man is above the law. So, the cards will fall as they have to and we're about to witness what will be a turning point, for better or worse, in this country's future.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 9:10 AM
  13. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    Okay, I understand your point of view. The other half if you will see this as nothing more than a partisan political vendetta against Trump. It's no secret the Democrats set out to destroy Trump since the day after the election. Then there has been tons of political propaganda from both sides ever since. So much so that it makes one's head spin. No one can determine fact from fiction.

    So you have probably close to 40% of the public paying attention to the hearings, the other 60% little to none as the polls show. Those 40% paying attention have already made up their minds on which side of the fence they're on.

    I'll be honest, I haven't watched a single minute of the hearings. After three years of this, I have become sick and tired of the whole thing. Let the partisan's battle it out. If Trump goes, fine, if he stays, fine. I had thought Mueller would bring an end to all of this, as it turned out, Mueller was just a beginning. I'm so disgusted with both parties, if I had the power to bar both from politics, I would. How many out there outside of the two major parties feel as I do? I think quite a lot.

    The interesting aspect for me in all of this is how the public as a whole think. Not whether Trump needs to go or stay. On that I could care less. Regardless whether Trump goes or stays, polarization and ultra high partisan are the winners. Not truth and justice, but power political party politics.
     
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  14. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I defer to your expertise in feeble excuses and alternate facts.
     
  15. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-Known Member

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    She's extremely good at that.
     
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  16. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    A crime was committed, one that literally threatens our democracy and the security of Ukraine. If Congress did not do something to stop Trump from committing these crimes in the future, what would stop any president from using foreign governments for personal political advantage by inviting their meddling and assistance in our elections? Congress is commissioned by the Constitution to be a system of checks and balances on the other two branches, as they have been commissioned to be a check on Congress. If Congress did absolution nothing, and brushed it under the rug, how many more 'Rudy Giuliani's' will there be in the future of this country? How many more wealthy wheeler/dealers would have free reign to conduct a shadow foreign policy on behalf of the US government but not part of or sanctioned in any way by the US Government?
     
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  17. Little John

    Little John Banned

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    Afraid you're just wrong sir. Trump will be re elected and you will be his constituent for the next five years and there's not a single thing you can do about it.
     
  18. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    Okay, but I must be missing something here. The president of the Ukraine deny's Trump threaten to without aid if he didn't investigate Biden. The president of the Ukraine states Trump never asked him to investigate. Do we take the president of the Ukraine word or do we believe the Democrats in congress?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 5:58 PM
  19. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

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    Trump guilt is wanting to know how corrupt Biden is.
    Just to remind, you so called democrats. Biden was vice president of USA.
    His corruption is treason at large scale.
    But, hey, investigating it is the worst crime a president can make, since Biden in untouchble.
    I dont get how someone can think like that.
     
  20. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    As has been explained over and over again, Zelensky has to please Trump, no matter what, he needs the US desperately. He's been waiting for his invitation to Washington and still doesn't have it. So why is that so important that it appears to everyone in the world that the US is supporting and backing Ukraine? That was explained by Zelensky himself. Keep in mind that Volodymyr Zelensky ran on a promise to clean up the corruption inside the Ukraine government. He won with a 70% majority based on that promise. Having the public support and backing of the United States sends a very strong signal to the world that the U.S. supports new democracies.

    https://time.com/5742108/ukraine-zelensky-interview-trump-putin-europe/

    Trump was telling him on the phone that Ukraine has a history of corruption. Zelensky replied in his Time interview; “When America says, for instance, that Ukraine is a corrupt country, that is the hardest of signals.” “If you’re our strategic partner, then you can’t go blocking anything for us,” he said. “I think that’s just about fairness. It’s not about a quid pro quo.”

    So what does that signal and to whom? He explains it very plainly here:

    "The United States of America is a signal, for the world, for everyone. When America says, for instance, that Ukraine is a corrupt country, that is the hardest of signals. It might seem like an easy thing to say, that combination of words: Ukraine is a corrupt country. Just to say it and that’s it. But it doesn’t end there. Everyone hears that signal. Investments, banks, stakeholders, companies, American, European, companies that have international capital in Ukraine, it’s a signal to them that says, ‘Be careful, don’t invest.’ Or, ‘Get out of there.’ This is a hard signal. For me it’s very important for the United States, with all they can do for us, for them really to understand that we are a different country, that we are different people."

    If Zelensky had stated 'Yes, he did signal to me that Ukraine needed to do these things before our aid money was released.', that would be the 'hard signal' that he speaks of in the interview. It would signal other nations that Ukraine can be manipulated, that Ukraine's new president is as corrupt as the former president.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:45 PM
  21. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    How is Joe Biden corrupt?
     
  22. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    exactly... spot on...
     
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  23. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Donor

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    So we disregard the one person who knows for sure besides Trump. So there are only two options,Zelensky is to be believed or the Democrats are. So as far as I'm concerned, everyone is free to decide which one.
     
  24. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    Trump is a well-known compulsive liar, Zelensky is trying to save the lives of Ukrainians. I know which one I'll believe.
     
  25. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes you did miss something. The President of the Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place. He is well aware if he was to say "yes I was felt threatened and would do anything he wanted to get the aid" could cook trump's goose completely. He can't say he was threatened. He's the leader of a sovereign nation. One that is in the midst of a shooting war with Russia.
    To hang your hat on a defense where in essence he is deflecting and denying diplomatically, is distressingly superficial.
     

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