Is Neo[Atheism] a Rational Religion?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for him, but I most certainly have... even here in this very forum.
     
  2. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Depending on your definition, of which there are several. But every argument I've made in this thread is under the assumption that you are correct.

    A single belief is not a worldview. A worldview is a comprehensive collection of such beliefs. Atheism can be included in that collection. It is not, itself, the collection. See the marble analogy earlier. Again: worldviews involve many beliefs, of which atheism more or may not be one.
     
  3. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    If you had simply finished reading the sentence, you would see you are wrong. " . . . encompassing the whole of the individual's or society's knowledge and point of view." Atheism doesn't encompass the whole of a point of view. You need several beliefs for that. Not just one.
     
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Neoatheists however do not consider the conclusion "G/god does not exist" carries with it everything used to derive that position.

    These guys act like they can walk up to someone who never heard of or have any clue what G/god is, will magically stand up and announce the 'single [dis]belief', if they can find a situation like that then I would be force to agree with them, but of course that is impossible because if that actually happened the person would say duh wha, which of course then comes the plethora of hypothesis about G/god, each that the person has to form a view and take a position on, which is the framework of course.
     
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  5. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    There is no universal set of "everything used to derive that position." It varies by atheist. You are back go arguing that a single marble in a jar is identical to the entire jar of marbles. Your back to a position so meaninglessly broad that even baseball fandom is a worldview. Being a fan of baseball, after all, carries with it everything used to derive that positino.
     
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  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    You have to have several beliefs to claim you are an atheist if its to be rational, no different than any other isms.
     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Theism, atheism, jainism, buhdism et al describes the foundational framework, its not a single belief as you pretend, its a comprehensive label to sum your world view conclusions like all the other isms, which describe each variant of religious framework respectively.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  8. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Yes, your jar of marbles will include other marbles besides the blue one. The blue one is still just a marble. It is not, itself, the jar.
     
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  9. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Theism is, indeed, a single belief: that God exists. Atheism is, at most, a single belief. Jainism and Buddhism are belief systems. They are comprehensive.

    "Theism" and "atheism" are not comprehensive labels. They address one of the marbles. They do not tell you about the other marbles in the jar. Jainism and Buddhism do because they are actually comprehensive.

    "Christianity" is far more comprehensive than something like "theism." Ted is a Christian. "Ted believes that one or more deities exist" doesn't tell you what his worldview is. It doesn't distinguish him from the (at least) tens of thousands of theistic worldviews. "Ted believes in one triune God, one persona of which came to earth as man and died for our sins" gets us much closer to an actual worldview.

    Theism and atheism are marbles. Jainism and Buddhism are jars of marbles, and they generally include the atheist marble in their jar. The fact that you need far more information than just the atheism marble to understand Jainism and Buddhism should be your first clue that the "atheism" part is not their worldview. It is one of many opinions that make up their worldview.

    Simply knowing that someone is a theist doesn't give you a good clue as to what their metaphysics are, what their epistemology is, what their ethical theory is, etc. Same goes for knowing that they are an atheist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  10. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Simple question: if atheism is a worldview, why do atheists have wildly different worldviews? This makes no sense.
     
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  11. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    most likely for the same reason every other religion varies wildly including Christianity!

    Using your marble example, one marble (atheist) describes and sums up the rest of the marbles.

    The one thing all atheists share in common is that they are atheist, just like christians, the one thing they all share in common is Christ, hence christianity is their label.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  12. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And I would agree that there are multiple Christian worldviews as well. Surely anyone familiar with Christianity would agree with that. Mormons and Christian Scientists have very, very different worldviews. Still, even "Christian" provides a lot more information about a person's worldview than just "theist."

    As different as Mormons and Christian Scientists are, they are more similar to one another than, say, Asatru, another theistic religion.

    And if the atheist marble summed up the rest of the marbles, all atheist jars would be roughly the same. You already proved that false in your OP.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  13. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    The one thing all atheists share in common is that they are atheist, just like christians, the one thing they all share in common is Christ, hence christianity is their label.

    The the rest is nothing more than different flavors of the same thing
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  14. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    If atheism were actually a worldview, they would have much more in common than just that. Yes, they have that marble in common despite having very different jars. Which proves atheism is not a worldview.

    Christ, their scriptures, the Holy Spirit, the Father, belief in miracles, belief in the afterlife . . . a much more comprehensive label than "theist" or "atheist" are.
     
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  15. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    yep no creator, no no supernatural, no evidence and on and on and on, your attempted point fails.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    false different back to the different flavor cakes again, round we go,
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Except "no creator" is just another way of saying "no God," it isn't true that all atheists dismiss the supernatural (again, check your own OP), and you haven't explain what you mean by "no evidence." "No evidence" isn't a belief.
     
  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    If you are honestly going to play make-believe that a Jain and Sam Harris have identical worldviews, there's no helping you. You are too committed to your dogma to accept reality in that case.
     
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    all you are doing is going from the comprehensive reduction to the expansion of the same and pretending its different.

    So you think you can be an atheist and believe in the divine? ****ing seriously? Citation!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  20. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    strawman argument
     
  21. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Jains and Sam Harris have different worldviews. Marxists and Objectivists have different wordviews. Atheist Quakers and LaVeyan Satanists have different worldviews. Atheist Buddhists and atheist positivists have different worldviews. Play semantics all you want, but reality rejects this nonsense.
     
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  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Lol, no. You claim atheism is a worldview, yet atheists clearly have different worldviews. If you want to backpeddle and change your mind about atheism being a worldview, fine. I welcome that. But trying to escape to inconsistency won't work. If atheism were a worldview, atheists would share a worldview. I just gave you an example of atheists who don't share a worldview. Then I provided more.
     
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  23. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say they could believe in the divine. I said they can believe in the supernatural. You can believe in ghosts and souls, for example, without believing in God. You literally brought up Jains . . . WHO ARE ATHEISTS WHO BELIEVE IN SOULS . . . in your own OP.
     
  24. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Its a very simple reading exercise to realize that all the isms posted have lack of belief in common. If the best you can produce is strawmen arguments I have more interesting things to do.
     
  25. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    That is all part of the supernatural, citation?
    they lack belief in god nonetheless, or maybe a soul is not in the supernatural realm as I thought?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019

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