Is the 'right to bear arms' unlimited?

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by chris155au, Nov 10, 2020.

  1. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    That’s a very poor analogy. But, leave it to you Gun fanatics to conclude that having three times the number guns would make the ratio even closer to zero as a worthwhile statement. Who the heck uses such a stat. Probably the NRA and gun dealers. The opposite effect is true. Actual gun violence compared to actual number of firearms, not as a ratio, makes a better statistical comparison. Please. The more guns, the greater the incidence of gun violence.
    https://www.livescience.com/39813-gun-ownership-increases-firearms-deaths.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  2. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    I take offense to this statement. You are being statistically dishonest using a ratio which is not as valid as the actual discrete number of deaths which goes up as the number of fire arms does. There is a positive correlation. That’s all that matters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  3. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Yes. In this time of a pandemic, everyone’s health is related to others when it comes to infectious diseases. Your health is dependent upon the health of others you contact in general.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  4. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. The ratio approaches zero. The actual number of fire arms correlates positively with the number of gun deaths.
     
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  5. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    I know for a fact, that in our state, private sales do not require a background check. Neither is it required that you ASK for proof that the buyer is an instate resident. You are assuming a legal private seller is a mind reader. Who are you to make such an assumption ? Licensed dealers aren’t required to be mind readers. They are required by federal law to do BC checks on all firearm buyers as should any private seller. In nearly all states that have stricter gun sales laws, there is less gun violence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  6. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    That question makes one think you’re in favor if legally arming active criminals. That’s an nra promoted idea so they can collect more donations from gun dealers so Wayne, who is being investigated for fraud, can steal from the tax sheltered NRA and its members.
     
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  7. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    572,000 in USA 1999-2016. This is a democide.
     
  8. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    And giving firearms to suicidal people is as cruel.
     
  9. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Requirement of background checks for sales across state lines is a federal law. Not State. You are right that background checks are not required for private sales...but ONLY if those private sales are intrastate. Interstate it is required, even for private sales.
     
  10. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I am for returning Rights to those that have paid their debt to society. Meaning served their prison/jail time and paid whatever restitution was owed and parole time served. If a person is not safe enough to own a gun among the rest of us then they should not be released from prison.

    Whether or not that is an NRA talking point or not is irrelevant. It is my stance. One based on Equality and Rights and Justice.
     
  11. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you believe convicted felons should be allowed to possess firearms....and doing away with parole systems because they World has mind readers to replace them.
    You all have this same fallacy. You believe there should be no background checks because why ? The law is on the books that felons owning guns are illegal ? More mind reading.

    You have no idea how to determine WHEN a person should be released and given back his full rights to society do you ?

    And somehow, they should magically all be able to make restitution, doing what ? More mind reading. What rediculous ideas. The idea behind restricting rights is an extension of the parole system. It’s called accountability where people have ultimately lost many of their rights as permanent penalty to society. Having a firearm in the possession of a convicted child molester or bank robber because he never molested a child or robbed a bank while in prison and is now ready to carry a gun, is insane. You’re completely devoid of logic and depend upon mind reading. Good call Wayne LaPierre.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  12. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    How we know when a person is suicidal......is the rub. Because in reality, many people are at some point in their lives and we never know it.
     
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  13. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    its certainly a lot.
     
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  14. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Don't need mind readers. Ex-Convicts are people just like you and I. And people CAN be reformed. Treating them like 2nd class citizens is what drives many back into prison. And that is a fact. Denying them jobs because of their past for instance often leads thieves to steal again. Same with drug runners etc etc. Denying them housing because of their past leads them back to the same people that they were hanging around before just to find a place to stay.

    A panel of psychologists, and other experts should be able to determine if a person has been reformed.

    There is no magic involved. Its called job placement programs. You do know that those exist right? Unfortunately due to the stigma that society has placed on ex-cons even those don't work fully. At best they can only get low minimum wage jobs with no opportunity for advancement. Which makes them feel worthless and as if they're not going anywhere, no matter how hard they try. Such also leads back to a life of crime.

    What's insane is permanently treating someone as if they're second class. As if they are not worthy to be with the rest of humanity because of a mistake often made before their brains are even fully developed. You DO know that most crimes are committed by those in their early twenties right? And prison right now is not directed towards rehabilitation. Its directed towards punishment. Change many of these things that I have mentioned in this post and you will find that the recidivism rate drops dramatically. Did you know that the recidivism rate in the US is the 3rd highest in the world? Even Nigeria, a country known for its extremely high rate of crime has a lower recidivism rate than we do. We need to work on reforming people. Not treating them as sub-humans for the entirety of their lives.
     
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  15. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    You sound like a liberal right up until the time of you’re un willingness to spend the money for rehab and your willingness to arm them. Regardless of the the rehab, there is accountability. Denying them the right to own a gun is NOT treating a wife abuser or child molester or even a common thief like a sub human. It’s called accountability. Regardless of your panel that conservatives are unwilling to pay for, no one in their right mind wants convicted felons easy access to weapons, especially those with violent pasts.
     
  16. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Btw,
    “Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, currently 20% within 2 years, with approximately 3,933 offenders in prison, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Norway's prisons are renowned for being some of the best and most humane in the world.”

    They also have some of the strictest gun laws.
    Gun ownership is restricted in Norway, unless one has officially documented a use for the gun. By far the most common grounds for civilian ownership are hunting and sports shooting, in that order. ... Rifle and shotgun ownership permission can be given to "sober and responsible" persons 18 years or older.”

    Also, Norway plans to ban semi autos in 2021.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
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  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Firstly, Norway is as different from the US as the Earth is to Mars so a Norway vs America is a false comparison(1)

    Secondly, there are well over 50 countries in the world with far higher homicide rates than the US that have complete gun bans(2) but their draconian gun bans don't keep them from exceeding the US in homicides.

    None of these countries have anything like America's 2nd Amendment but yet they are far deadlier to live in than the US.

    If America's 2nd Amendment was the cause of homicides, then the US would lead the world in homicides but it doesn't.

    If compete gun bans don't work in these 50+ countries, why would they work here?


    (1) "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"
    https://mises.org/wire/mistake-only-...oped-countries

    EXCERPT " Note, however, that these comparisons always employ a carefully selected list of countries, most of which are very unlike the United States. They are countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.

    The US has the highest murder rate in the "developed world" — presumably because of its lax guns laws —we are told again and again.

    Few people who repeat this mantra have any standard in their heads of what exactly is the "developed" world. They just repeat the phrase because they have learned to do so. They never acknowledge that when factors beyond per capita GDP are considered, it makes little sense to claim Sweden should be compared to the US, but not Argentina. Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense"CONTINUED



    (2) "Intentional homicides (per 100,000 people) - Country Ranking"
    https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings
     
  18. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    It depends ...

    If you carry a ready-to-use nuclear bomb in your backpack (because you're a Jihadi), and nobody cares, then an "unlimited right to bear arms" may probably exist. :)
     
  19. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Let’s just use our country then. Stricter gun laws on average are found in states with fewer gun crimes per capita.
    Case closed.

    You need to read the several posts before before criticizing the reference to Norway.
     
  20. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Nope. They aren’t like me. Maybe you if you want to brag about it. Maybe like Trump. Criminals have a mindset including lack of empathy and that the laws don’t apply to them. This coincides with more Conservative party here. It also coincides with increased conservative right wing terrorist activity here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  21. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Sadly availability of guns guarantees loss of tens of thousands of lives each year.
     
  22. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100% -- they should be helped. Norway has much lower recidivism rate then USA.

    But they do not need guns.
     
  23. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I hold many classical liberal views. And have no problem with spending the money for rehab. And I would bet that many conservatives wouldn't mind it also.

    And when you punish someone for their entire life, withholding human rights from them... yes, that IS treating them as sub-human.
     
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  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    No it's not unlimited, you can't own a nuclear armament.
     
  25. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Yes, it's just others have the right not to be injured.
     

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