Islam & Christianity the same tradition ?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Aleksander Ulyanov, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Very painfully and very obviously is how you butchered it. Godly works, as is made obvious by the scripture, are a result of a salvation already granted rather than a cause of that salvation. All those people crying Lord, Lord, were doing al sorts of works but it gained them nothing because they did it for the wrong reason. See the allegory of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 for a similar treatment of the subject. You can just visualize the goats turning in Resumes listing all the works they've done while the sheep can't remember having done anything at all. Please see the difference isn't in the works it is in the nature of the doers of those works. The goats remember every little thing they've done because it is out of character and therefore difficult to persevere in such doing. Meanwhile the sheep for whom such deeds are as natural as breathing and as remarkable hence not memorable. While the goats hunt that ever elusive Damascus road experience striving ever to be the hero, the sheep just keep on doing whatever God has placed before them.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry Pisa but the above is made up gibberish. Go read my post again and address what is written - and the passages quoted rather than sticking head deep in the sands of denial over something that is obvious.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't butcher it - in fact I even stated that there was room for part of your interpretation. You are the one in abject denial - making up nonsense when Jesus states clearly "Only those that do the will of the Father".

    So tell me what is Jesus referring to as "the will of the Father".
     
  4. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    The will of the father can only be done by those whose name is already in the Book of life written before the foundation of the world. And it isn't because they do it perfectly they can't, after all they aren't omniscient and omnipresent either, it is because doing the Father's will has become their very great desire it is in short the metric by which they try however imperfectly to live their lives.

    Let's revisit that encounter with the rich young ruler for a moment. The rich young ruler responds to Christ's statement regarding the second table of the ten commandments with the Phrase "all these I have kept since my youth." In none of the gospels in which this encounter is mentioned does Jesus condemn the RYR for lying and in Mark Christ's response to this statement is to love him. Obviously then the second table of the TEn commandments was not the RYR's problem. The problem is the first table his relationship with God. At this time his prestige and popularity with the people over whom he ruled and his good reputation, possibly even among the disciples themselves, was more important to him than his relationship with his God.
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Holy Carp - what a ridiculous answer. I am not asking what YOU think - I am asking what Jesus said. Jesus does not say anything about having one's name in the Book of Life as being the will of the Father. He never says this in the Sermon on the Mount - nor anywhere else in Matt/Mark or anywhere else in the Bible. You are completely avoiding the teachings of Jesus with respect to this passage.

    Lets not revisit this passage as
    1) I have already granted that your interpretation is possible - albeit not plausible due to the fact that it would directly contradict other teachings of Jesus - teachings which you desperately seem to want to avoid.

    2) I have discussed this passage at length with you - outlining alternate interpretations and highlighting the fact that this passage is both vague and mysterious making any interpretation sketchy at best - pointing out numerous other passages that are not vague - passages which clearly contradict Sola Fide

    3) I have explained to you that the concept of "Grace" - as per the meaning one could glean from this passage with respect to the Pauline concept -does not exclude works. This is a subtle point you either missed or are avoiding. Just because the intervention of God is required for salvation - does not mean that God does not have a works requirement. Catholics believe in the grace concept but do not accept Sola Fide. You are fallaciously equating the two. So even if your interpretation of this passage does have some merit - it does not support Sola Fide.

    4) The "Will of The Father" are the things that Jesus describes in his sermon= works works - and more works. This is the whole point of Jesus being "the Logos" - emissary between Man and God who speaks Gods word directly through the Holy Spirit. You are denying "The Christ". This sermon is not some vague passage - This sermon takes up 3 chapters Matt 5-7 - the primary theme of which is how one gets into heaven. In this Sermon Jesus outlines the will of the Father in great detail.

    Then in his summary - he states that "Not all those that call lord lord" will get through the gates. The idea that he is referring to Pagans here is preposterous nonsense. Not that this matters to the question at hand as even if this was the case it does not impact on what Jesus describes as the will of the Father - what this passage does state directly is that not all with "faith" will get in. Jesus then gives examples of faith healers - folks prophesying and casting out demons in the name of Jesus. I would take this to mean folks who use the name of Jesus for personal gain rather than to glorify God - and this is one interpretation. What is not in question however is that these are people of faith.

    Jesus then goes on to clarify further - stating that not the hearing (and obviously believing = having faith) that is important but the practicing - the doing - of the words.

    Regardless - the will of the Father is following the teachings of Jesus that he outlines in this sermon. The Teachings of Jesus in this sermon "IS" the will of the Father. Denial of this is denial of the "Christ" - "The Logos". In other words - this is not Jesus speaking - this is "The Father Speaking" as per the Logos concept. It is this context that you are deliberately avoiding - and I don't know why.

    The will of the father is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"/ Treat others as you would be treated. This is the rock on which Jesus bases most of his teachings - if you want the simple version. He restates this principle numerous times "Love neighbor as self" - Judge not because if you do - this is how you will be judged (a direct reference to how you are going to be judged - one which has everything to do with works and nothing to do with faith). This is echoed in Matt 25. Take the log out of own eye before picking speck out of Brothers. Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.

    It is not like Jesus is being vague or mysterious in these passages. Jesus does not require perfection (as per the last restatement of the Golden Rule) .. and also the Matt 17 passage - and also the parts of Matt 5 that I referred to previously. A big part of grace is the concept of forgiveness - Jesus act on the cross is about forgiveness. Why then did you go on about this being some "black vs white" paradigm between "perfection" and abject evil when the Jesus clearly speaks otherwise.

    When Jesus says - Do unto others - "This rule sums up the law and the prophets" - he means "This rule sums up the law and the Prophets". How you would then not understand that following this rule is "The will of the Father" - is beyond my comprehension.
     
  6. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    What I have stated is the standard Reformed and Lutheran doctrine it is not original with me.
    AS for your first section why you continue to miss the point is beyond me. If people who do works as indicated by the Scripture Matthew 17, the parable of the Seed and the sower and the allegory of the sheep and the goats and other parables, and numerous other places old and new testaments are going to hell anyway then obviously works don't get you into heaven.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was raised Lutheran and am well aware of the doctrine. Then- once again ... you completely ignore both my comments on Matthew 17 and all the places where Jesus touts works as a salvation formulation - and then accuse me of missing the point.

    You then make reference to the Seed and sower allegory and the Sheep and Goats parable - making no comments on how these parables support your claim.

    Dude - you are living in the land of denial and are desperately grasping at straws and saying things that make no sense.
     
  8. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    I ignore them because you are clearly wrong. If works are the way to salvation why are the goats, with plenty of works, in hell? Why are those crying Lord, Lord, going to hell in spite of all the stuff they did in Jesus name? If works are the ticket to heaven why do they only work for some and not others? Is God unfair or is there something more, much more involved.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not wrong. Don't blame me for your dislike of the teachings of Jesus. If you think Jesus is wrong you are welcome to your opinion but this does not make me wrong. Then you ask me why folks that did stuff in Jesus name are going to hell. Why are you asking me - Ask Jesus.

    You then ask if God is "unfair" - Anyone with any knowledge of the Bible knows that God often acts unfairly in the OT. If you think God is unfair for not letting serial killers through the pearly gates - because just prior to the electric chair they chant the name of Jesus a few times .. you are welcome to your opinion.
     
  10. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes, Christianity is the same, they also linked to the jewish religion for the same reasons - I think history shows it worked for both religions as they have the most members - course both religions also engaged in convert or kill too
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  11. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Idiotic claim since Jesus, Peter, Paul, and all the other early Christians were Jewish and took their cue from Judaic law.
     
  12. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    i heard someone say that the banu quarzya tribe was arab not jewish.
     
  13. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Why do you think Allah is not the God of the Bible? Because his name is not Yahweh.
     
  14. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    If you wish to understand the Gospels, you have to interpret them using the proper historical context. There were plenty of other gods and philosophical schools around. It's only natural to find mentions of those other faiths, even if in polemical form, in the Christian writings.

    I'd say that neither Sola Fide, nor works, are what Jesus required of his followers. I'd say that knowledge was the most important part of the early Christian beliefs - knowing God, his ways, his wishes, understanding why Jesus was the path, the truth, the life. Grace was only offered to the initiates (those who knew), not to those who worshiped (said "Lord, lord") but didn't understand why they had to follow certain rituals.

    The parables in the Gospels seem to be an attempt to spread the knowledge to the masses of believers without revealing too much of the secrets. Maybe the writers of the canonical Gospels believed, as did Paul, that the end of the world was fast approaching, and wanted to save as many souls as possible.
     
  15. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    I love the teachings of Jesus you clearly do not understand them. I ask you because I already knew. Works clearly are not the key salvation. They never have been and never will be. I expect to see even fewer Popes in heaven than I do serial killers and very few if any of either.

    What I do know is that God's standards are not rational to the unsaved. I know the Pharisees were big on works and the overwhelming majority went to hell. I know there is vastly more to the Bible and the universe and God than you and I will ever understand. I know that men and women are not perfect or even perfectable or even understand the basic requirements for perfection. I know that I am not saved because of anything I have done, will do, or am doing, but only because, for reasons of his own, that I do not yet fully comprehend, God wrote my name in the book of life before he ever said let there be light and for all I know your name may be written there as well. Many do not find out they were chosen until quite late in life.
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) I do take historical context into consideration.
    2) That there were "plenty of other Gods" does not apply to the point that was being made. Jesus is talking about the path to salvation as per his God - not these other ones.

    That is not what Jesus says (bold). He addresses this directly in the last paragraph (as quoted previously) in his summary of the Sermon on the mount. Matt 7
    It can't be any clearer Pisa - and the fact that there were many Gods - matters not to the meaning of this passage. It is not the hearing of the word (gaining knowledge) that is "most important" - but putting those teachings into practice.

    With respect to who Jesus was referring to "those who said Lord Lord" - you omitted the critical statement that follows. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Regardless of who the people Jesus is referring to are - initiates or others - it is not just knowing the will of the Father that is important as you claim.. it is Doing the will of the Father.

    Jesus is not speaking in mysterious or vague or unclear language - as is the case in other passages. Its crystal clear with respect to the importance of doing. Not that the first passage I posted follows directly after the second. Not only does Jesus state the importance of doing in the first passage (which is actually the second time as passage before this also follows this theme) - he repeats again in the second passage -using very clear language.

    While this is true in many cases - it is not the case with respect to the passages quoted.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What a bunch of BS nonsense. We just spent numerous posts where I posted the teachings of Jesus - and you ignored and contradicted those teachings.

    I did not ignore the passages from Jesus you posted. I addressed them directly. I did not go running to stick my head in the sandbox of denial - that is what you did - and continue to do.

    Rather than address posts from Jesus that state clearly that works are a key to salvation - you completely ignore these teaching followed by restating your premise "works are not the key to salvation" ... as if repeating this premise over and over like some broken record parrot - and completely ignoring teachings from Jesus that are contrary to your premise - proves your claim true.

    You sink deeper into mindless and fallacious denial with the above comment - complete with ad hom and demonization - as if this constitutes proof of claim.

    The fact of the matter neither you nor I can prove what God's standards are. While it might be true that the Standards given by Jesus are correct .. your tactic has been to pro actively ignore and deny the teachings of Jesus.

    This is doubly mindless given the fact that you claim that the source for this defacto knowledge of what Gods standards are - come from the teachings of Jesus - teachings of Jesus that you pro actively ignore.
     
  18. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Because the God of the Bible is a very different god than the one described by Mohammed as Allah. He claimed that it was the same god, but the God of the Bible wouldn't tolerate 99% of the **** Mohammed pulled.

    Here's the best description I've found so far of the differences between the God of the Bible and the Allah of the Koran: https://www.ciu.edu/content/allah-islam-same-yahweh-christianity

    I'm atheist now, but if there were any justice, Mohammed really would be burning forever in the pits of hell, each of his victims and every one of the victims of Islam inflicting a little more pain and agony on his evil soul. As evil as Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot were, they were amateurs compared to the monstrosity that was Mohammed. Allah the same god? God forbid.
     
  19. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    NO you posted your opinion of Jesus' teaching and nailed down about every known heresy going back to Polybius. Jesus at best teaches works as a response to salvation not the cause of it. Figure for me why Christ tells the Pharisee concerning the woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, "Those who are forgiven much love much." Unless you begin your life perfect and never fall from perfect, an impossibility, your works alone will never get you into heaven, because nothing you can do makes you one whit less guilty of the wrongs you have committed.
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't post my opinion. I posted the opinion of Jesus - an opinion which directly conflicts with your dogma. You have consistently ignored discussion of the opinion of Jesus because you can't handle the fact that what Jesus teaches conflicts with your dogma.

    You then go to blubber made up gibberish such as " Unless you begin your life perfect and never fall from perfect, an impossibility, your works alone will never get you into heaven, because nothing you can do makes you one whit less guilty of the wrongs you have committed" - which has nothing to do with - and contradicts the passages I quoted.

    You also move the goal post in that the conversation is about "faith alone" - not "works alone" - whether or not works are required - not whether or not perfection is required. Jesus never states that one needs to be perfect - in fact he infers directly that perfection is not a requirement for salvation.

    Jesus states directly that only those that "do the will of the Father" make it. He doesn't say that only those that " have faith" make it.
     
  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    No you posted your opinion of what you thought Jesus meant you are clearly wrong. There is clearly far more than mere works at play or this duality in the gospels concerning works would not be present.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We do not have to guess at what Jesus meant in many of the passages I quoted from Jesus so my opinion is not required.

    For example: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    This is not my opinion - this is the opinion of Jesus. What part of Doing the will of the Father is not crystal clear ? Jesus doesn't say - "Believe the Truth of the Gospel" or some such thing related to faith... Jesus is talking about doing something.

    Jesus then further clarifies in the next paragraph.
    What part of - it is putting the teachings - teachings that Jesus has just given in this sermon - into practice . iss unclear to you. This is not my opinion .. this is what Jesus says.

    We don't have to guess and opine about what Jesus means by "The will of the Father" because 1) Jesus has just given a sermon detailing what the will of the Father is and 2) Jesus states directly that the will of the Father is to put the teachings he has just revealed into practice.

    How am I "Clearly Wrong" ? It is you that is clearly trying to avoid these passages in a fit of raging denial.
     
  23. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    The word "prophets" is the clue, in my opinion. Jesus is talking about the path of salvation as per his father's teachings, as opposed to other gods teachings through prophets of other religions.

    Anyway, this is not such an important issue.

    I don't dispute the importance of works (including rituals). My point is that understanding why works were important was an inseparable element of the early Christian doctrine. An element now lost, replaced by dogmas.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then we are on the same page. Works still an essential part of Christian doctrine - and part path to salvation according to most of Christianity - (Orthodox and Catholic). It is only Protestantism that accepts Sola Fide doctrine invented as per Luther (salvation by faith alone) - and not even all Protestant denominations accept this doctrine. Sola Fide was what the poster was trying to defend.
     
  25. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Now read the rest of it. And tell me why Christ never knew those crying Lord, Lord. The Bible cover to cover is clear Salvation produces works not the other way around.
     

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