Italy Circulates 4-Point Peace Plan

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Lil Mike, May 22, 2022.

  1. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting. The Wall Street Journal reports that Italy has proposed a peace plan to get a ceasefire in the Russian-Ukrainian war.

    Italy Circulates 4-Point Peace Plan

    Italy presented a four-point peace plan this week to United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres to end the conflict in Ukraine.

    “We are working with partners and allies, including Ukraine, on a peace plan,” said a spokesman for the Italian Foreign Ministry, declining to give further details. A spokesman for Mr. Guterres declined to comment on the proposal.

    The plan calls for local cease-fires to allow for civilian evacuations, and creating the conditions for a general cease-fire leading “to a long-lasting peace,” Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio said on Friday, according to the Associated Press.

    These are the bullet points of the plan:

    The first step in the peace plan, according to the newspaper, is a cease-fire and the demilitarization of the front lines.

    The second point is that Ukraine would be a neutral country, with its security guaranteed by a not-yet-identified group of countries. The contours of this part of the plan would be discussed at a peace conference.

    The third point is a bilateral agreement between Russia and Ukraine to clarify the future of Crimea and Donbas. The agreement would deal with cultural and language rights and guarantee the free movement of people, goods and capital. The plan, according to Repubblica, indicates that Crimea and Donbas would have almost complete autonomy, including in questions of defense, but would be part of Ukraine.

    The fourth point would be a multilateral peace agreement between the European Union and Russia that would include a staged withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine and the winding down of Western sanctions against Moscow.


    These seem reasonable and achievable to me. I'm just dissapointed that the US hasn't been pushing for a peace plan or ceasefire.
     
  2. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Banned

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    Crimea will never be part of 'Ukraine' again. That part of the plan is a non-starter. As for as the rest of the 3rd point, those were all covered in the Minsk Peace Agreements, which Ukraine ignored and continued their campaign of genocide against the civilians in the Donbass.
     
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  3. George Bailey

    George Bailey Well-Known Member

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    So now that Mariupol has fallen and things look more bleak they are suing for peace and "appeasement". What incentive does Putin have to accept? Why would he throw a lifeline to the West? In reality this should have been done at the onset. Unfortunately with all the rhetoric and escalation who knows if it even possible.
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    As far as Crimea goes, I would agree, although Donbas is still very much up in the air. If an agreement on those items could be agreed to, the sanctions imposed due to the annexation of Crimea could be lifted.
     
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  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Even though the Ukrainians are still losing, the fact that the US is all in on keeping the war going may give them less incentive to want to negotiate.
     
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  6. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Much like my fantasy baseball team most days, that's probably a big 0-4.... Is Italy not aware Putin is still reportedly in charge??

    It's a plan to suggest a peace conference..... groundbreaking concept....

    Where's the point covering war crimes and economic reparations?
     
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  7. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Speaking of Russia (no good Russia threads out there currently), is anybody on this forum, or anybody you know, on the latest Banned From Russia list?

    I'm not doing the math, but a great number of Congress is on there, D's and R's (checked for Rand Paul... he's not). Also John McCain, Harry Reid, and Orrin Hatch..... all deceased...

    Banning the US Sec State from traveling to Russia? Sounds like a country ready to talk peace to me..

    I would have thought Matt Gaetz and Andy Biggs would be given dachas outside Moscow??

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/05/22/russia-ban-list-americans/9884122002/

    https://www.mid.ru/ru/maps/us/1814243/

    Quite the list.... You-know-who isn't on it either....obviously....
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
  8. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Biden, the self proclaimed foreign policy expert, pretty much telegraphed to Putin that it was ok to invade Ukraine. First Biden totally botched Afghanistan, then he said a minor incursion by Russia wasn’t a big deal, then he offered to get the Ukrainian president a ride out of the country which would have handed Ukraine to Putin on a silver platter. Biden wasn’t happy just destroying this country, he wanted to take Ukraine down with us.
     
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  9. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Looks like the Z man is on top of that one.... Great he's already thinking about post war compensation.... that's a positive sign and a good morale booster

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelensky-outlines-proposal-confiscate-russian-120013015.html
     
  10. Big Richard

    Big Richard Banned

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    I don’t see Zelensky going for that at all.
     
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  11. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I think it's less that he wants to take Ukraine down and more that he wants to take Russia down, and is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian to do it.
     
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  12. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    I do think its reasonable, and probably reasonable to most European countries as well as the US. However, Russia is "dead set" (no pun intended) on Donbas region and Ukraine is not willing to give up any territory, especially Crimea. Also not acceptable is Donbas and Crimea being "independent" either. For point #2, that would have to be members of NATO such as Poland, Hungary, Germany, etc. And I don't think Russia will go for that either.

    As far as the US efforts, who knows this could be a back door channel in which we are wanting this type of peace plan, but then again, Russia, especially Putin, will not want to negotiate with the US, just Ukraine.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope that Russia and Ukraine are more open minded in considering terms than you are.
     
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  14. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    I would not say the Ukrainians are losing.
     
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  15. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    Two issues for Ukraine. First that Russia should not dictate Ukraine's policy, internally or externally, and that none of its regions should be lost no matter who, what, how, when, and to what extent. That too is reasonable, except for the Russians of course.

    For this peace plan to become effective, Russia will have to exchange Ukraine's promise not to join NATO in exchange for Russia giving up all claims to Crimea and Donbas. That is reasonable too to most European Countries, US, and others, except maybe Russia and Putin especially.
     
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  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well if you define losing in the traditional terms, Ukraine is losing, but on the other hand it's not too late for a come back.
     
  17. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're setting terms. The only way I can see Ukraine ever getting Crimea back is if they take it militarily and can hold it. Otherwise, Russia regards Crimea as part of Russia and I would be hard-pressed to imagine a situation in which Crimea is returned to Ukraine.
     
  18. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Putin made any kind of negotiations impossible at the start and essentially so up to now. Whether "alternative" Russian government officials can be dealt with at this point is unlikely. In any case, one overlooked "point" is the devastation inflicted upon the Ukraine and compensation for such.
     
  19. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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    #3 is a Non-Starter for Russia...

    And, obviously, any agreement would need to include Massive Compensatory Reparations to rebuild parts of Ukraine destroyed by Russia.
     
  20. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    As I posted yesterday, Zelensky is already thinking along those lines... Post #9...

    His plan makes sense, as if you can recompense Ukraine without hurting the economy or people of Russia as much, it won't be as devastating as the attempts to have Germany recompense the Allies after WW2....

    Take the Putin/Oligarch money....
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  21. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    Ok if one were to adhere to Clausewitz, Russia is definitely not winning.
     
  22. Egoboy

    Egoboy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I sort of think of it like covering the spread..... Russia may be winning by a FG, but they were a 4 TD favorite coming in...
     
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  23. mdrobster

    mdrobster Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not even a field goal. Russia may prevail in the Donbas area, but that is all and mainly because they have been there for 8 yrs.
     
  24. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm looking at ground held and the likelihood that the Ukrainians would be able to push the Russians out.
     
  25. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    Crimea was illegally taken by Russia to begin with, and thus should not be recognized. Nor should Russia be recognized as the rightful owner of the land. It belongs to Ukraine, PERIOD.

    Remember, Russia started this, and because they started it, they should not be rewarded with such bad behavior. You, on the other hand, want Russia to be rewarded for their bad behavior, false allegations to begin with, and becoming increasingly hostile. The only way I see Crimea being returned to Ukraine is Ukraine signing a commitment not to join NATO militarily.
     

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