It's high-time that we doubled the National Minimum-Wage in America!

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    The combined annual spending of Federal, State, and local governments currently runs about $17K-$18K per person each year. I would maintain that those paying less than that amount per family member are already being subsidized. How many taxpayers actually pay taxes exceeding $17K or more per family member?
     
  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It doesn't "misrepresent the population" since it employs uniformly the "popular-vote"! There is NO ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

    Prime Ministers win the national popular-vote as the head of their parties. There is also no gerrymandering on the scale of the US, where it has been - since its inception two centuries ago - a mischevious tool to give unfair voting-power to lesser populated states. Some EU-states nominate a non-functional president (the purpose of which is to preside during a quick change of government resulting from a national election). And France is unique in electing a national president with specific powers (e.g., defense of the nation).

    The vote for a national PotUS should not be in the least dependent upon an "Electoral College". There is neither any need nor justification for such "misrepresentation" in a functional democracy.

    They are ALL "national" states, with further subdivisions EXACTLY like the "United" States, that is, each with their own legislatures! They are all federated at the EU level by means of a Parliament that sits in Strasbourg, France and they have sitting EU-judges ("supreme courts") that hear cases of an EU general nature the judgements of which are applicable throughout the EU.

    Thus, they are all functional democracies.

    Non EU-citizen entry into the EU without an authorized "visa" is illegal. Migration for work inter-EU is possible but a request for a Work Permit must be made and it cannot be refused of an EU-citizen.

    (The present rampage of illegal migrants into the EU is of two natures, either:
    *Economic because they cannot find jobs in the Middle-east or Africa, or
    *Political because they are civilians escaping the war in Syria.)

    Not if the US had an adequate electoral "system" based upon a National Identity Cards as in the EU - which are necessary in order to vote "only in one place".

    A National Identity Card would also be useful to local and federal authorities as regards prosecuting crimes. In the nordic countries, the card is given at birth and employed throughout one's lifetime for purposes of ... legal identification!

    I repeat - so read carefully: The only developed country on this planet that DOES NOT APPLY the popular-vote for the election of its Executive (Head of State) is Uncle Sam.

    Meaning, it is the ONLY truly fair and impartial means for election to any political office! (Whether anyone likes or not the outcome of the vote.)

    Americans must understand the fact that because of:
    (1) a biased Electoral College and its winner-take-all-voting mechanism at the national level), and
    (2) the use of gerrymandering at the state level, that
    (3) it's "democracy" is NOT FAIR AND IMPARTIAL ...

    Not by any measure at all of the meaning of those two words, "fair and impartial" ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nice try, but no - the poverty threshold studies measure total family income. From the Census Bureau:
    It is doubtful that "public housing, Medicaid and food stamps" add any truly significant income to the "total" that would seriously affect the published Poverty Threshold figures ...
     
  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are comparing apples and oranges, though both a fruit.

    State taxation pays for state education. National expenditure on state-aid for education (from the Dept. of Education) is a very minimal proportion of the total national budget. (See here.)

    I am suggesting that - due to the fact that we are leaving the Industrial Age and entering the Information Age - we need to subsidize Post-secondary Education. Only 55% of high-schoolers today are obtaining such a degree (vocational, 2- & 4 year) because the costs are hallucinatory. The other 45% (both with and without a high-school diploma) are destined for a mediocre existence below or just above the Poverty Threshold and way below the national average ($54K individual income).

    Post-secondary educational costs must be subsidized out of the National Budget and can be done by reducing the ridiculously high percentage of the budget allocated to the DoD.

    Why do kids join the Army? Because, if they don't die whilst serving they get to have a post-secondary education paid for them.

    That's idiotic nonsense any any truly "developed" nation ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe a picture is a better way to show the inequality of voting in the US? How about this map showing (by differences in coloring) the number of popular-votes per Electoral Vote?

    On this map (from How powerful is your vote?), note the variance in colors showing well the difference from state to state the number of votes necessary to elect One Electoral Voter. Excerpt from the site:
    The vote for the presidency is not "popular". I.e., "My vote in California is equivalent to your vote in Vermont". That just aint so, because of the unfair manner in which votes are allocated in the Electoral College as well as its idiotic "winner-take-all" voting that weights the EC-vote totally to the winner and not partially (which was the actual case).

    In no other political office in the country does this manipulation of the popular vote take place in the US.

    Why should that duality of voting procedure exist? For a lot of cockamamie reasons that we are presently reading on this forum ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope. Take a course in EC101. (After all, this IS an economics forum.)

    Like Roosevelt, Obama took over a sick economy. Roosevelt met an economist, however, by the name of Keynes who suggested a revolutionary technique for getting a country out of a depression.

    It is called Stimulus Spending by the government. This - for the time - was a radical solution but
    nonetheless was adopted by Roosevelt. It had mixed results up until 1939, when the massive spending of WW2 finally did stop-dead the Great Depression.

    It has worked in most circumstances of economic downturns since. Except in 2010, when Obama (who had successfully stopped-dead an exploding unemployment rate with Stimulus Spending (the ARRA-bill of 2009) asked a Replicant HofR for more spending. And was not-so-politely refused with some silly lecturing on Austerity Budgeting.

    The Replicants wanted him "unelected" in 2010, and their political strategy was to maintain high unemployment - which is why they refused the financing. And Joe America along with his wife and kids paid the price of Replicant backwardness.

    Tell me how I got it all wrong, wrong, wrong ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  7. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    90 million plus Americans are being subsidized while idled by the minimum wage.
    Subsidize workers instead of the able idle - eliminate the minimum wage.
     
  8. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    States decide how their Electors are split they could divide them based off of the vote percentage or something easily enough so isn't this fight a State by State fight to make changes it would be a lot easier than a Constitutional Amendment.
     
  9. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly my point. If we have a family of four with two wage earners making minimum wage, the income coming in is about $30,000 a year. The poverty threshold for a family of four is $24,600 Thus, a family of four with minimum wage earners, while poor, are not in poverty.

    It's simple math. Let's assume 52 weeks of minimum wage $7.25 an hour, 40 hours a week. That is $15,080 a year for a single person. If there are two of them, that's $30,160 a year.
    https://www.dol.gov/whd/minimumwage.htm

    Per the federal government, the threshold for poverty rate for a family of four is $24,600 per year.
    https://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty-guidelines

    I am exactly right on this issue, as I can do basic math and read. Try doing the same, as you may have the capability, just not the inclination to.
     
  10. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    There should be no Federal minimum wage at all, while there is nothing stopping States from passing a minimum wage should they desire.
     
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  11. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I cannot argue with that.
     
  12. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    The median wage for a 30 year old college graduate is $18/hr, while a high school graduate working in the construction trades averages $25/hr plus $15/hr in non wage compensation. A college education does not make you more productive, does not make you more intelligent, and most importantly it doesn't in ANY WAY prepare you for the labor force.

    Why would drastically reducing job training, employment for the disabled, and manufacturing help our country?
     
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  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK, wages are lower because s/he's got a job in the services industries.

    Whilst those earning higher salaries are far fewer ever since manufacturing high-tailed it to the far east. Manufacturing employs PRECISELY 12% of entire American workforce ... !
     
  14. james M

    james M Banned

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    liberals hate states having freedom and so they hate the concept of America. Freedom is always a problem for liberals who want an all powerful communist central govt. And how do Obama/Sanders trick people into voting for an all powerful central communist govt? They promise the central govt will give them welfare!!
     
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  15. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    Manufacturing never left the United States, as until 2011 we were the largest manufacturer in the world. Technology has run it's course, and vastly automated the bulk of industrial output.

    Automation, however works both ways, and I know dozens of individuals who have automated systems doing everything from mowing their lawns, tending their gardens, and brewing their beer. The future belongs to those who master the skills to automate their lives and increase their own productivity.
     
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I quite agree. As both an engineer and an economist, I am aware that manufacturing is going "up-market". As well it should! (It always has since its inception.)

    But, that means fewer jobs on the production line as both robotics and 3D-manufacturing processes come on-line. But, so what? They keep prices of manufactured goods at an acceptable level for what America has most of - a market-economy of 323 million individuals.

    That is ALL that really matters, even if most adults (more than three-quarters) of the population are NOT WORKING in the manufacturing industries ...
     
  17. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    Why doesn't the service industry pay as well, especially if you "need" a college degree to perform the task.
     
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  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The service-industry pays already - it is called corporate taxation.

    And like all taxation (corporate or individual), a post-secondary education for any child of a family earning less than $100K per year should be fully subsidized out of the National Budget. (There's plenty of funding in the DoD-budget that can be employed.)

    Once again, National Education is NOT BASED ALONE upon a job-need of skills/competencies. The nation as a whole needs smart people to be smart - like not rampaging with swastikas as ignorant idiots ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  19. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    I don't have one of them there fancy high school diplomas, but I reckon what yous a doing is called a tangent.

    Ya sees I pointed out that us here fellas workin construction outearn, substabilly, them even fancier college edgumacated fellas, and you brought up a lack of manufacturin. Now insteads of answerin my question as to whys a college edgumacation pays less then unedgumacated work, yous a sayin that we need smart people for the sake of smart people.

    I am a high school dropout, because as an incredibly intelligent individual I don't need a really nice piece of stationary stock with gold leaf to convey that to others. What I did need as a young man, however, was a purpose and the tools to become an exemplary individual. Something that the United States Marine Corps was more than willing to give a young, ambitious man from a broken home during a time of war. That "massive" DoD budget you're talking about cutting LITERALLY turned me into a productive citizen. It gave me my start in construction, taught me how to be a leader, taught me how to be focused and determined, and most importantly helped me become a home owner at 25.

    I gave it the ol' college try, but once again, I'm not a ****ing idiot, and was able to pass my classes without the slightest bit of effort, so I forwent the tuition, and just bought the textbooks on business as it was a much cheaper alternative. Your inability to understand the very simple concept that intelligence is a result of what happens long before you reach college blows a giant ****ing hole in your argument. So it's no big surprise that you made damn sure to include in your argument that it's foundation is that if we don't do this they'll be NAZIS.

    I personally know, myself included, tens of thousands of young adults who would be in prison, or currently out committing criminal acts and actively involved in organized crime if it wasn't for that "wasteful" DoD budget, and instead we're midlevel management and business owners. So go **** your logical fallacy.
     
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  20. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, good for you! But, I am not debating about "just you".

    I am talking about the generalities of education in a larger sense. It is generally far, far better to have an education than not. (I have posted income data to prove that point.) Perhaps that is not so in the construction industry, but if the US believes in OJT, then who am I to complain? But, if anybody gets killed on a construction site the insurance companies are going to want to know who, what, where and why.

    People without the proper training manipulating large machines is illegal in most of Europe. If you want to move very heavy building equipment around, you MUST have a permit to do so and that permit requires a minimum education in the various machines that are employed. Also, that "education" rarely takes more than two or three months to conduct for such jobs.

    If you want to be a wood-worker the time necessary to learn the trade is a bit longer.

    But, if you want to program sophisticated high-tech manufacturing robots, then you are in for a two year course on 'modern technology of manufacturing" - and it helps to know how to read 'n write well in order to move up the corporate ladder.

    And that is ONLY the "trade" part of an education - if a people do not have a good education neither do they generally know how to get along with one another and maintain meaningful discourse amongst them. Which always helps to understand complex situations, both political and societal ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    People who today function in the lower financial rungs of society will continue to function in the lower rungs of society no matter if MW is $7.25/hour or $75/hour. The ONLY way for those who demand more in life is for them to personally take steps to increase their potential. All of this BS about doubling MW and other meddling in the private sector will never accomplish anything...never has and never will...
     
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  22. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    Well **** son, I've got an excellent way to teach anyone on earth how to play nice with others in less than an hour.

    It's called a Knackbox, one of them big steel tool chests, and after sitting in one for an hour in the Texas sun you learn many a life lesson
     
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Piffle 'n drivel, drivel "n piffle - with idiot sarcasm to boot ...
     
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, here we part company.

    The Poverty Threshold ($24K annual income for a family of four) is NOT idle banter. It is economic imprisonment in poverty!

    The US has some of the highest gun-related deaths occasioned by thievery and its incarceration rate is 10 times that of France. And it is due mostly to what?

    If you look statistically at the incarcerated population, they are not the "smartest people on this planet". From here: Characteristics of Inmates - Education Of Prison And Jail Inmates - excerpt:
    I maintain that if they were "smarter" education-wise, they'd not be in prison ...
     
  25. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    That's flat out slavery.
     

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