Jesus Christ and The Noble Qu'ran

Ah yes, the old "my religion is better than yours" argument.

 

Wrong.

He uses quotes from the koran as his only proof for his argument. I reject the idea that the Koran is the word of God. Unless he is going to first convince me that the Koran is the word of God then he is making a pointless argument. There has to be a common point of reference, and with his approach, there is none.

 

Well, I do agree with you. I've had the same argument with many people on this forum about their use of their holy book to prove their point before they have convinced me their holy book is truly the word of God.

 

So amazed you know the mind of someone you do not believe existed. Got some more of that incoherence to plaster on these walls?

If God is Love, then God who was in the human form of Christ loves more than just the jews. For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him will have ever lasting life.

But I agree with Thomas Jefferson. You have to dig through the manure to find the diamonds, thanks to the men who corrupted what we know of Christ. I think the Gospel of Thomas is probably the Christ that actually existed, and not the Christ of Paul. Christ was a mystic and got his arse hung on a cross because of it. Another avatar along with the Buddha and Lao Tzu, and perhaps Krishna, and in the 20th century, Jiddu Krishnamurti.

 

So you're calling Yeshua a liar? Shame, shame.

Matthew 15:24 (TLB) = "Then he said to the woman, “I was sent to help the Jews—the lost sheep of Israel—not the Gentiles.”

Luke 14:26 (Voice) = "If any of you come to Me without hating your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even your own life, you can’t be My disciple."

We are discussing an ancient ethnocentric Middle Easter Jewish religious fairy tale. You don't have to believe in it to discuss it. You should be intellectually honest and discuss what it actually says.

 

Food fight!!!

 

So...are you a substance dualist or a property dualist?

 

History of atheism

"Atheism (derived from the Ancient Greek ἄθεος atheos meaning "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, especially officially sanctioned gods"[1]) is the absence or rejection of the belief that deities exist. The English term was used at least as early as the sixteenth century and atheistic ideas and their influence have a longer history. Over the centuries, atheists have supported their lack of belief in gods through a variety of avenues, including scientific, philosophical, and ideological notions.

In the East, a contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Jainism, Buddhism, and certain sects of Hinduism in India, and of Taoism in China. Within the astika ("orthodox") schools of Hindu philosophy, the Samkhya and the early Mimamsa school did not accept a creator-deity in their respective systems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

 

The French Catholics created the word "atheist" around 1570 to describe the Protestants who they were fighting in a religious war. http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=atheist It was most likely meant as a curse word against the Protestants, who were trying to exercise freedom of religion. Although the Catholics and Protestants were Christians and worshiped the same deity the Catholics were upset at them and considered the Protestants to be godless heretic scum so they were willing to kill them to force them to become Catholics.

 

"Atheism (derived from the Ancient Greek ἄθεος atheos meaning "without gods; godless; secular; denying or disdaining the gods, especially officially sanctioned gods"[1])

atheist (n.)
1570s, "godless person, one who denies the existence of a supreme, intelligent being to whom moral obligation is due," from French athéiste (16c.), from Greek atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly,

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=atheist


In 2015, according to estimates, at least 29% of the country's population identifies as atheists and 63% identifies as non-religious.[1]


Until the Enlightenment, those who embraced a non-theistic belief were regarded as being immoral or amoral, and profession of atheism was considered to be a punishable crime.

Scholar Étienne Dolet was strangled and burned in 1546 on a charge of atheism; in 1766, the French nobleman François-Jean de la Barre, was tortured, beheaded, and his body burned for alleged vandalism of a crucifix, a case that became celebrated because Voltaire tried unsuccessfully to have the sentence reversed.

Among those accused of atheism was Denis Diderot (1713–1784), one of the Enlightenment's most prominent philosophes, and editor-in-chief of the Encyclopédie, which sought to challenge religious, particularly Catholic, dogma: "Reason is to the estimation of the philosophe what grace is to the Christian", he wrote. "Grace determines the Christian's action; reason the philosophe's".[5] Diderot was briefly imprisoned for his writing, some of which was banned and burned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_France


John 8:24-41 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30As he spake these words, many believed on him."


Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."


31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."


Even if you are religious or atheist or agnostic or anything else, "Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise" - Ephesians 6:2

Why would it be so difficult to have love and honor towards ones' own parents?


John 8:39 "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham".


Acts 15:5-29
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Acts 15:30 "30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:"

 

Then what are you seeking after in the Religion/Philosophy Forum?

 

In this thread, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are trying to make a point, you are trying to convince me that your point is valid. You have to use relevant evidence, and all you are doing is quoting the Koran - and that is not valid evidence.

 

500 years ago perhaps.

Because Christianity wanted to remain relevant in a growing and changing society. There was the Renaissance period where people abandoned backward practices. Hell most majority Christian countries are secular or have secular governments and laws.

So yes Leviticus says lots of things are abominations such as eating shrimp or having sex during menstrual cycles. But they haven't practiced those laws in centuries likely in half of a millennium.

It better start doing that more. If it knows what is good for it. The civilized world is a sleeping giant and can smash the califate beneath it's boot like a cockroach. It seems that it's reaching a boiling point. You

If these religious texts are the word of god than that god is a villan. So is clear that should a supreme being exist these texts (bible, quran, torah, talmud ect) are not his works. If our morality is superior (by which i mean western and it most certainly superior to that espoused in any religious text) than we are now the gods.

 

You might want to brush up on Christian doctrine as specified in Romans chapter 1, especially verses 22-32. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans1:22-32&version=CEB;NLT;KJV;MSG;VOICE

 

Scripture is irrelevant. Actions matter.

 

Well, if it's part of Christian doctrine that homosexuals are worthy of death why would any good Christian embrace them? Bad company corrupts good character.

 

I'm not sure it is part of Doctrine I don't see Christians killing homosexuals. Thus it's part of scripture. See my previous post about scripture.

 

For example, The Holy Bible clearly says that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind, that it is an abomination. But many Christian Churches skim right over the abominable and allow such practices to be almost 'defended' by themselves

Well, if it's part of Christian doctrine that homosexuals are worthy of death why would any good Christian embrace them? Bad company corrupts good character.


Okay... I can see your point.

The very first thing every human being needs to remember is that noone is God except God. No pastor, no preacher, no evangelist. Not even the Pope. No human being with a genetic make up of 46 chromosomes is God.

When The Holy Bible stated that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind, that it is an abomination, it means just that. It may not be an abomination for and to man but it is an abomination. To get a little deeper, what does the word 'abomination' mean in your idea? Loathsome? Disgusting? Nauseating?

Secondly we have to keep in mind that God does not preach any longer. God does not stand in front of the Christian Churches preaching and sharing God any longer. He did. He no longer does. He ascended on High and sits at the Right Hand of His Father. Not here on Earth, but in Heaven where God's Throne and God's Holy Angels and Heavenly Family is.

So, what might it have meant when it said that anyone found committing the abomination, that they be put to death?

And what might it mean that Christ came and took and put that 'death penalty' upon His Own Body? He received the 'death penalty' of ALL abominations.


Okay.. So abomination can mean disgusting, detestable, nauseating.

8441. toebah
Tolaites

Or tonebah {to-ay-baw'}; feminine active participle of ta'ab; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol -- abominable (custom, thing), abomination. http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/8441.htm


In the first line above it reads: feminine active participle of ta'ab. What does ta'ab mean??

8581. taab
make to be abhorred, be, commit more, utterly

A primitive root; to loathe, i.e. (morally) detest -- (make to be) abhor(-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable(-y), X utterly.
http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/8581.htm


So, when The Holy Bible says, "...that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind, that it is an abomination,"

what might it be saying???


Could a possibility be: "...that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind will (be, commit more, do more) of the man lying with mankind as with womankind??

And what usually becomes of such ongoing practice? We get into unsafe sex. We get into higher risks of STD'S. We get into AIDS. We get into 'passing on STD'S' to others. And what do you think of someone's 'passing on' of a sexual virus which has very high chances of 'destroying' the person that receives it??


Why is it more difficult for a male who has layed with mankind as with womankind to stop practicing it than for a male who has never lain with mankind as with womankind? In other words... Looking back to the very first sexual male lying with mankind as with womankind experience... Could it have become more difficult to leave that practice the more it was done?? A male who may have had more female sex partners than male sex partners might have an easier time leaving the male lying with mankind as with womankind sexual encounters than males who has had more male sex partners than female sex partners...

The female sex partners seems as if they can 'break' the 'habit' of man lying with mankind as with womankind... 5 male to male sexual encounters might be equivalent to 15-20 male to female encounters when it comes to 'habit formation'..

And this is one reason why males who have formed 'male to male' sexual habits have a much more difficult time when they are made to be around places where their 'habit' cannot be fed, such as in Military.. What they do 'off base' is what might sustain their habits. But regardless, their 'habit' will need to be 'fed' in order for them to not go through 'withdrawals'.

Just think about it.. If a hetero male goes haywire once in a while while he is in Military because he is not having male to female sexual encounters, the same haywire and much more, does the 'gay' male go through because he is not having male to male sexual encounters...


The sexual urges of the male to male sexual encounters is MUCH more 'addictive' than the sexual urges of the male to female sexual encounters.


And this is one reason why when male homosexuals leave those 'habits' that they have a difficult time remaining true to their choice to leave. The urges becomes too overbearing and soon it becomes 'not even worth' it to keep in there. It is just like any other 'addiction' that people try to get away from...

 

If these religious texts are the word of god than that god is a villan. So is clear that should a supreme being exist these texts (bible, quran, torah, talmud ect) are not his works. If our morality is superior (by which i mean western and it most certainly superior to that espoused in any religious text) than we are now the gods.

And once again remember that it isn't God that changes His Words, it's man who teaches words God never spoke..

God never said He keeps up with changing times.
God never said He changes His Ways and Policies to 'fit the time'.
God never said that it was okay to practice abomination and to not worry about it.
God never said follow the Pastors.
God never said follow the Church.
God never said He is a myth.
God never said to take His Word with symbolisms and interpretation.

God did say to follow Him.
God did say that He never changes; that He is always the same.
God did say to turn away from abominations.
God did say there were 12 hours in the day which had 'light' in which to work.

 

yes and the people that really need to keep that in mind are the ones who like to preach

I don't care.

Secondly we have to keep in mind that God does not preach any longer. God does not stand in front of the Christian Churches preaching and sharing God any longer. He did. He no longer does. He ascended on High and sits at the Right Hand of His Father. Not here on Earth, but in Heaven where God's Throne and God's Holy Angels and Heavenly Family is.

So, what might it have meant when it said that anyone found committing the abomination, that they be put to death?

And what might it mean that Christ came and took and put that 'death penalty' upon His Own Body? He received the 'death penalty' of ALL abominations.


Okay.. So abomination can mean disgusting, detestable, nauseating.

8441. toebah
Tolaites

Or tonebah {to-ay-baw'}; feminine active participle of ta'ab; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol -- abominable (custom, thing), abomination. http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/8441.htm


In the first line above it reads: feminine active participle of ta'ab. What does ta'ab mean??

8581. taab
make to be abhorred, be, commit more, utterly

A primitive root; to loathe, i.e. (morally) detest -- (make to be) abhor(-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable(-y), X utterly.
http://biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/8581.htm


So, when The Holy Bible says, "...that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind, that it is an abomination,"

what might it be saying???


Could a possibility be: "...that any man which lies with mankind as with womankind will (be, commit more, do more) of the man lying with mankind as with womankind??[/QUOTE]Save it for Sunday mass padre. I stopped going to church because I don't like people trying to brain wash me.

Who is we?




[/QUOTE]...male who has layed with mankind as with womankind...[/QUOTE]I don't know why you posted this word salad. This isn't how people talk it's clunky it's cumbersome and it's way too verbose and thus you lost the point I'm not going to try and Cipher through this.

Seeing as queen aren't men, i don't think they habe the capacity to have homosexual sex with men.

If you're gay or bisexual perhaps. Heterosexual men would think differently.

this is so freaking stupid your completely misunderstanding human interaction to prove your stupid book right.

It isn't an addiction it isn't a habit to desire a committed relationship with someone whom you are sexually attracted to. I reject all of that nonsense.

to a homosexual man yes to a heterosexual man no.

because they're homosexual and they're lying when they pretend not to be.

Um... heterosexual people can be addicted to sex too.

 

I don't believe the Bible is God's word.

I don't care what you think God said.

 

Callling every Muslim a slave holder is like calling every Jewish person a Pharisee or Sadducee.[/QUOTE]

Which of the many Muslim sects do not allow child brides and do not put a price on that bride?

Regards
DL

 

Instead of trying to see what Christians are doing in the Name of Jesus, seeing what The Holy Bible directly says might be more True. Not all Christians follow what God prescribes in His Word. Going directly to the source to see what 'should' be done is a much Truer way of knowing the Heart and Mind and Character of God than trying to see the Heart, the Mind and the Character of God in 'persons' who are flesh and blood.

Although God does live within the lives of Christians, God also lives within the lives of every 'life' on His Earth. Believers, unbelievers, agnostics, murderers, rapists, anti-Church.... God is all and is in all.

Ephesians 4:6
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Colossians 1:15-19
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"


Colossians 3:11
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."


Certain 'Christians' are NOT the only humans who give God a bad Name.

 

God may NOT be relevant in your life or another person's life, but everybody is relevant to and in what God receives.. that is why Scripture says: Isaiah 52:5 "Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed."

And also:

Romans 2:24
"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

 

Romans 2:17-25

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

Romans 2:26-29

"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


verily:
ver·i·ly
ˈverəlē/
adverb
archaic

1. truly; certainly.
   "I verily believed myself to be a free woman"

Circumcision, or The Law, 'truly, certainly' profits.. But only if you keep to the ways of it.