M. P. Bill Casey... President Trump has a 4.3 trillion dollar problem....

Discussion in 'Canada' started by DennisTate, Feb 4, 2018.

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Should Canada's Conservatives, Liberals and NDP all cooperate on these issues?

  1. No... the Canadian political parties are behaving just as I want them to.

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  2. Yes...... we are facing problems that cannot be solved by politicking....

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  3. It is hard to imagine happening... but that would be a good development.

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  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK.

    The thing is, I see this as having absolutely NO relevance to the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

    America doesn't accept humanitarian atrocity on the basis of religious comparisons.

    As pointed out, what's happening there also breaks pretty much every single fundamental belief upon which America is founded.

    And, as Bob From Delaware points out, the current direction may well be leading to a more violent future - which may not be the most important issue, but is certainly something that should contribute to our foreign policy, especially when it would be so trivial to stop this.

    I see it as a crime that we support the ongoing criminal action when we CAN end that without violence.

    In fact, we would have the praise and cooperation of the entire world in doing so. Even Israel is not unified behind this continuing atrocity.
     
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe that I may have answered some of your questions with this post that is largely a quotation from "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" by Mr. Robert Mendelson:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...onvert-to-islam.392139/page-5#post-1068908814

    First century church may have numbered 400,000... did the majority convert to Islam?

    ......

    What is forming in my mind at this time is P. M. Justin Trudeau........
    perhaps offering to borrow all 4.3 trillion USA Petro-dollars.......
    that threaten the value of the USA dollar if they are in the hands of Mr. George Soros and Warren Buffet and several nations who want the dollar devalued...........

    .... P. M. Trudeau comes up with a plan to ensure that the US dollar is not devalued.....

    but it is a somewhat risky plan because it could lead to the Canadian dollar going towards par with the USA dollar.......
    which many Canadian manufacturing companies might not want to see happen.


    I get more specific on how exactly the US dollar is being threatened here:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ge-soros-vs-mark-taylor-and-crazytate.515832/

    https://totalwealthresearch.com/ric...-gamble-bet-u-s-collapse-warns-cia-economist/

     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  3. Bob from Delaware

    Bob from Delaware New Member

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    Dear Will, a form of cultural imperialism is imposing one's viewpoint on peoples around the world. If we decide religion is of no importance to a situation, then it must be ignored to suit our expectations. But, that doesn't mean the reality is what we desire. A document like the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples wouldn't exist if all that matters is what the dominant society thinks. If religion had no part in the problem, then Jews wouldn't claim G-d gave Samaria to them. Palestinian Muslims would have no beef with Jews worshipping at the Noble Sanctuary. It goes deeper than that, no matter how much you'd like to dismiss it. The good news is that when it is addressed, something like Oslo but better results.

    It's quite true there's other aspects to the trouble. Avarice plays a part. So does racism. But the part Creator has in all this is critical for a truly just and peaceful resolution. Without that, we'd see the worst of all possible outcomes. You'll learn some valuable stuff if you read the peace plan. More if you read "The Way of Holiness & the Sacred Hoop".

    But, from my perspective, I know where the peace plan came from. I have no attachment of ownership to it, I just did the part of formatting it. The Being who created it exists in all things, everywhere. It's in you and Dennis and me. The ground we stand on. If it created this peace plan for its purpose, then it will come to pass regardless of whether you choose to read it or not. A third of the people will welcome it, and that will be enough. But, you might enjoy the ride more if you check it out.
     
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  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't blame you for thinking this at this time.......
    so I have began another discussion that focuses on Robert's book,
    "The Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop" that I believe will help to
    explain how all of this can indeed be linked to the attainment of genuine peace / Shalom
    between Palestinians and Israelis.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...p-by-robert-mendelson.529985/#post-1068910431
    The Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop by Robert Mendelson


    We humans....... find it almost impossible to not make some sort of an idol..... out of our own group...... our favourite political party.... our own hoop.... our own denomination.... or organization... .or tribe...... or culture...... that we belong to.........
    To attain Shalom / peace on earth... .we humans... .both Jews and Gentiles... must break out of the idolatry of our own group....... as being the group that all seven billion infinitely precious human must submit to... .
    and become very much like we are...... and believe... and speak. .... and even what language we use.

    We Canadians are guilty of making idols out of English and French......
    when we tried to destroy the native languages of the First Nations tribes of Canada.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42101457
    Trudeau apologises for 'deep harm' of residential schools


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41342434
    Justin Trudeau: Canada humiliated indigenous people
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but...

    It is Israel's view that THEIR society, THEIR religion is dominant - so important that they have the God given right to destroy the lives and aspirations of all those in their way.

    Suggesting that I'm proposing this from a US centric or western centric viewpoint flies in the face of the world wide view that what Israel is doing is criminal. These actions are indeed counter to our beliefs. But, they are also counter to the beliefs of almost every nation in the world. This is NOT a matter of putting America above others - it's a matter of wanting America to be part of the majority when it comes to opposition to humanitarian crimes.

    When I spoke of what the US is doing, I'm noting that WE are supporting what Israel is doing. WE help them do it. WE are part of that criminal activity. And, it is against OUR fundamentals that anyone should do that. I pointing out that we are behaving against our own moral code. And, if we are to stand for anything at all, we need to stop doing that.

    And, I totally reject your notion Israel's humanitarian crimes could possibly be justified by a claim that God told them to do that.


    Remember, they are not just suggesting that they should be allowed to enlarge their borders through war (which is already counter to law). They are suggesting that they can carry out ethnic cleansing operations on those living there, stealing the property and driving out humans who have full rights to live there, REGARDLESS of what country their property is declared to be within.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Please tell me in a short, crisp sentence how you would sell this to a Palestinian whose land you are in the process of stealing.

    When the bulldozer has lined up on a house and the owners have been chased out at gun point, tell me how you plan to explain to them that they should like your proposal.

    Do not use religion in your argument, because it's been made clear to Palestinians that there is deep religious hatred that is promised never to be reconciled - that Israeli citizens are second class with fewer rights if they have the wrong heritage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Don't keep confusing this issue what what Canada or the US did to indigenous people.

    Nobody in Israel or Palestine cares about that history.
     
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  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would tell them that the nation of Israel and the Palestinian territories
    are in the news so often in the USA, Canada and all western democracies for many valid reasons.........

    ..... If nuclear WWIII that destroys all life on earth begins in the Middle East.......
    then....... all 36 million Canadians die also.... if all life on earth is destroyed.


    Thus.... we Canadians have no choice but to be exceptionally interested in
    events in Israel, the Palestinian Authority and Jordan.

    I have lots of other things that I could be doing with my time these last few months but
    when somebody gives me a plan and tells me how their idea can lead to
    an economic boom in the nation of Jordan as well as in the Palestinian Authority........
    and...... positively transform the situation in Israel......
    then they have gotten my attention.

    Sigmund Ivarsson's Petra Project for Israel, Jordan and The Palestinians.

    .........

    The Petra Project that has been proposed by Mr. Sigmund Ivarsson is exceptionally interesting to me because it directly addresses the threat that I perceive hangs over the towns and villages in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Canada, that are in the most danger if the West Antarctic Ice Sheet begins to crack and slide more rapidly..... which could soon produce significantly higher average ocean levels.

    The Petra Project would not only put somewhere in the range of two hundred million cubic meters of ocean water into the area of the Dead Sea annually but.........
    it would be an example of how addressing food shortages, water shortages can be combined with stabilization of the climate.

    Mr. Sigmund Ivarsson wishes to donate the plans for his Petra Project to Canada's P. M. Justin Trudeau.
    ........

    Matthew Fox Ph. D. has stated in his book "Coming of the Cosmic Christ" that ART.....
    in some form may be the only way to create full employment in a world where
    increases in technology are putting so many people out of work............
    so philosophical concepts such as "Armageddon" as understood by the major Abrahamic religions have off the scale ARTISTIC VALUE.....
    that can produce full employment in the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Lebanon... .and Israel.

    P. M. Benjamin Netanyahu.... can be maneuvered by the Orthodox Jewish community into
    setting in motion a new way of looking at prophecy..........
    and how it might unfold.... in such a way that the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and Israel could be three of the first nations to reduce their unemployment levels to essentially zero.


    Artistic Hollywood style "Armageddon" could bring world out of recession?!

    ......
    Since author Robert Mendelson wishes to make zero money off "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" and "The Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop"..... then a serious look should be taken at his proposals with the words.....
    ARTISTIC VALUE.......
    firmly in mind!

    I would tell Palestinians that becoming a suicide bomber is NOT the most effective way to positively alter the situation for their people. Becoming more well informed of other options has many advantages.
     
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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They will if the First Nations peoples of Canada become Canadian soldiers serving in the Palestinian Authority who are preventing Israelis from killing Palestinians........ and preventing Palestinians from killing Israelis.

    A LOT.... can be accomplished with 4.3 trillion USA petro dollars!
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  10. Bob from Delaware

    Bob from Delaware New Member

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    Dear Will, If argument is all you want, I hope you'll find a more willing partner. Civil discourse doesn't include demanding one present a complex case in "a short, crisp sentence". But I will say this; to Palestinians it is explained in a manner fully consistent with the Qur'an and hadiths, as well as history. FYI, the Arabic and Hebrew translations were written by two Palestinians, one from Jerusalem and the other Galilee. It was convincing enough for them. It's been reviewed by imams and scholars. They don't demand a solution in one short crisp sentence. They're a bit more respectful and reasonable than that. To this point, none have challenged the usage of Muslim scriptures, nor the history.

    A fair and objective discussion also doesn't include unilaterally setting the parameters of the discussion to only those areas one is comfortable with. Your demand that religion be excluded from consideration has no basis if I can provide sound reasoning for why it is a factor. If it is a valid factor that you're choosing to exclude for your own convenience, then the foundation to all your subsequent points is undermined. If you want a substantive discussion, you'll need to retract the demand to exclude religion. If you want a discussion where you get to frame it in exactly the manner that suits you, have a blessed day.

    A clarification: we keep using the word "religion". Religions are based on theologies associated with sacred messages--they don't necessarily act in a manner consistent with the content of the sacred books. That's why the word "apostate" exists. The peace plan makes reference to the content of the sacred books themselves, not the associated theology.
     
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  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is just monumentally out of touch with reality.

    Everyone in the entire world knows that this problem is serious. So, I'll not address that.

    And, I'll ignore the idea of promising a positive economic future for West Bank if only Palestinians surrender their property and their futures. They would also see major economic benefit if Israel wasn't working to destroy their economy. They would see a major economic benefit if Israel would withdraw to its borders and allow them to conduct business.

    And, the final sentence is just plain unacceptable. The Abbas government works in conjunction with the IDF against all forms of violence. The IDF declares Abbas to be its most important partner in security.

    The "terrorism" that does exist is born of the occupation and ethnic cleansing.

    Tell me what American would accept foreign theft of their land at gunpoint without armed opposition. The fact that it gets done with individuals rather than armies comes from the fact that Abbas won't allow armies to do that and individuals don't have better weapons (nor legal recourse) with which to oppose Israeli criminal activity.


    I still think you have ZERO to offer that would mitigate for peace.

    There is NO economic future for Palestinians under military occupation. And, inside Israel, non-Jews don't have equality. I'd point out that for a long time, the Muslims most interested in a single state solution were citizens of Israel - hopeful that large numbers more Muslims might help them move toward equality under the law.

    I just don't believe that your proposal addresses any of the important issues.
     
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  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The message of the US is crystal clear. And, it has NOTHING for Palestine.

    But, that doesn't even matter.

    Nobody is going to buy off the Palestinians any more than the Brits would have been able to buy off the 13 colonies.
     
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  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    WillReadMore... here are the links to the original English as well as the Arabic and Hebrew translations of
    "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" by Robert Mendelson as well as some other related resources:

    http://godspeaceplan.org/books-download-page/

    Downloads Available
    Left click on version to open and read.
    Right click and save link to download to your computer.

    Title Version
    God's Peace Plan Arabic God's Peace Plan Arabic Version (final)
    God's Peace Plan English God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land
    God's Peace Plan Hebrew God's Peace Plan Hebrew Version (final)
    Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop Way of Holiness & the Sacred Hoop
    What's Going On in the Holy Land What_s Going On In The Holy Land
    Map of the Holy Land Map of the Holy Land
    Map of the Holy Land Map of the Holy Land (Arabic & Hebrew)

    Here is a review of "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" by a brilliant Islamic scholar Dr. Fazlul Islam:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/gods-peace-plan-for-the-holy-land.322565/
    God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land

    Fazlul Islam:
    I of course asked for Dr. Fazlul Islam's permission before posting his review of "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" and he readily gave me permission to do so..... although there are considerable risks for him to come out publicly in such enthusiastic favor for this plan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I think pretty much every dispute settlement can be boiled down to a few short sentences. Some of those sentences may need argument or illumination. In this discussion, I keep getting long statements of religion that do not even slightly seem likely to convince both parties. That does block discussion, as it swamps out the message with volumes of detail.

    Thus, I ask for the bullet point version, which I believe will make discussion easier.
    I agree religion IS a factor. In fact, it is a factor in many different ways. Two such ways include the Israeli claim that the property of Palestinians was given by God to Israelis and the example of what it is like for non-Jews to live as citizens under the government of Israel.

    As for your "only those areas one is comfortable with" jab, I absolutely agree that I'm NOT comfortable with the continued humanitarian crime of ethnic cleansing. There is NO legitimate justification for continuing that crime. And, the support for continuance of that crime for one more hour (or ...) is simply not acceptable. In fact, it invalidates the very notion that a legitimate negotiation could take place.

    The exclusion of religion was again an effort to get away from the fact that both sides want "peace" of some description, and that I haven't seen anything that would solve the many problems that Palestinians face in the requests that they give up their property, their sovereignty, their rights to an invading power. Again, I'd like to see the bullet points that would convince them of that agreement.
    I fully recognize that.

    One catch with that is that you are really set on a course of attempting to change people's minds about their religion.

    I think you should start by trying to convince the major imams and rabbis. But, obviously that has nothing to do with the immediate step of ending ethnic cleansing.

    Some of this IS a matter of order of events. Negotiating resolutions with Palestine is not something that can possibly continue while Israelis are actively stealing land from Palestinians in Palestine.

    Let's remember that Israel sees that as their right. And, there is no reason for anyone, let alone Palestinians, to believe that crime will stop if they concede their entire nation to Israel as some sort of peace offering. They really aren't that stupid.
     
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  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I like the fact that there are bullet points under "Summary of the Key Points of the Plan" - I can' task for more than that!


    This is the best one-state solution I've seen. I've been willing to support either a one state or two state solution for about a decade. But, I haven't seen one like this.

    However, the relinquishment of an independent state of Palestine, the right of return, the trust required when considering joint rule, and some of the specifics seem like extreme hurdles at a time of on-going humanitarian crime.



    And, I'd point that Israel has a really great competing plan - that of simply stealing the land and making greater Israel the de factor final solution.

    What is your sales pitch for Israel to give up being a "Jewish State", allow the right of return, and retreating from the huge holdings in West Bank that they have established, likely being subject to Arab rule at least at times, dramatically shrinking the influence they have in the Knesset concerning both internal and foreign policy, etc?

    I'd point out that the Israeli plan is completely within their power and control. Yours is not.
     
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  16. Bob from Delaware

    Bob from Delaware New Member

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    Will said, "One catch with that is that you are really set on a course of attempting to change people's minds about their religion."

    My reply is when "Jews" try to use religion to claim Samaria (northern half of the West Bank), or "Muslims" use it to justify ISIS' behavior, or USA "Christian Zionists" use religion, doesn't it seem a good idea to help change their minds, so their behavior will change, too? What point is there to say to a believer, "Forget what you think God wants you to do--do it my way instead"? That doesn't make any sense at all. No, what you do is work with what you have. If a person is a believer, then present that person with an argument that they can see in terms of their faith. That one person may not change, but far more believers will change if the solution is presented in the best possible manner in their spiritual language.

    Will said, "
    I think you should start by trying to convince the major imams and rabbis. But, obviously that has nothing to do with the immediate step of ending ethnic cleansing."

    Not sure if this was mentioned here or not, but Will, prior to an NDE back in '92 I was a Bible-detesting pantheist. I'd sworn at the age of twelve I'd never look at a Bible again and didn't until I was 40 years old. Right after the NDE or OBE (I was alone at the time and the experience was preceded by an excruciatingly painful sensation in my forehead. So maybe that was an aneurysm, or something else. Maybe the third eye opening. I have no idea). Afterwards, I was given a Bible and had to read it. Normally when I read, I say the words silently inside my head as I read. As I read the book, occasionally it would be like it was speaking to me, not me reading it. I jotted own the verse numbers to these. There were two kinds. One kind showed how different paths arrived at the same destination. The other kind was the specific passages that make up the peace plan. I tell you this because I know it didn't come from me. Since I know that, I share it with others in precisely the manner instructed to. The Instructions call for bottom-up, not top to bottom. And so it has been and will be until the time comes for that to change.

    I commend you for having the self control to take a step back and modify your approach, particularly after I pointed out what needed modifying. Not many people who are passionate about something can do that these days.

    I can't fail to disappoint you, because if the answer was as easy as a few short bullet points, people would have gotten it done by now.

    I will give you a brief overview of things, and hope this isn't too painful.

    The primary message I came back from the NDE with was something one might call "the Great Circle", where Creator speaks to each people and gives each some basic elements we see in all paths, like "Don't murder". Each people also receive certain specific nuggets of information the others don't have in quite the same detail. The special gifts of each are meant to be shared with the other paths. Without sharing these gifts, none has a clear vision of what is, and there will be mysteries and contradictions they cannot explain using their Message alone.

    Hinduism, in particular, carries the idea of repeating cycles, although this is a major factor of the Maya, too.
    Reincarnation, while present in many paths, is also most clearly articulated through India. The only way to remove the terrible and hurtful contradictions from so many "fundamentalist" approaches is to view things from the perspective of souls evolving through lifetimes over the course of a cycle, or age.

    Over the course of an age, individual souls mature at differing rates. Learning the interconnectedness of all, seeing God in all things, is the goal. When the goal is reached, the soul takes a vacation, so to speak. Nirvana is one name for that. The other souls remain. Creator loves each of them, and let's each continue its growth in its own time, however painful that amy be. Towards the end of an age, the strongest-willed (put nicely) or most stubborn, ego-centered (not so nicely) souls are the ones remaining. That reflects in culture traits of ME, ME, ME and a lot of excessive materialism.

    One other feature is the prophecies. Information can be passed across time by a Being that spans time. That Being can take a tapestry and tear it up into pieces and give pieces to each people as a part of their Message. If one knows these all come from the same Source, one will view them in ways in which they connect, much like one tries to fit pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together.

    That was one of the gifts I received back in '92. I can't see the entire tapestry, but I can see enough to travel most all the way to the destination, and that's what I've been doing the past 25 years. Going to the top for salvation is not the way indicated. Working from the bottom up is.
    The "Israeli plan". as you call it, worked only so long as a large power with sufficient anti-aircraft missile armament and corresponding air power and yes, nuclear deterrence decided to visit Syria. Russia will find it near impossible to sit by idly and lose face internationally when the next eruption happens. That will change the situation to a mutual dead end to all participants. When people are earnestly praying to Creator, that's when enough of them will accept the solution found in the sacred books.
     
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  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    lol.

    Take a look at the route of the wall. It's carefully designed to encompass the land that is of most value, running as it does up river valleys and surrounding arable land while excluding less valuable land even when it is the high ground (putting a lie to the claims of "security").

    The land must be judged on its value - not the average value of some region.

    As for the rest of the economic aspect of this plan, I see nothing that works toward West Bank recovering from the devastating years of Israeli occupation. Remembering that Israel has taken action explicitly targeting the destruction of Palestinian economy both in West Bank and Gaza, that is just not good enough.

    For example, the war against Gaza has for a decade precluded the export of goods. Export! There have also been extensive periods where Israel has confiscated taxes and other fees that belonged to Palestine and otherwise deprecated their economy as would be expected in a time of war. Plus, just about everything in Gaza needs to be rebuilt as a result of targeted bombing of civilian infrastructure in Gaza.

    Continuing to maintain a border around Gaza is a universally recognized act of war - not a part of a valid solution.



    For this reason and other aspects of governability, I suspect you need to modify your plan to have Gaza included as a part of what is Israel today.
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This certainly is not the way we do things here in the USA.

    We don't ask anyone to abandon their religion.

    We don't accept the notion of making some group irrelevant by use of voting power, based on religion or anything else.

    We don't care who someone descended from, what sacred books they read, or whether their holy books condone criminal acts.


    This is one of several places where the religious centricity of the support for this proposal is WAY overboard, to the exclusion of other reasonable direction.

    I don't believe you can change Israeli minds by proposing that Palestinians are certainly Muslims, but they are THEIR Muslims.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    In the first case, there is serious scientific evidence that the Canaanites and Jews were closely related and that the Israelites were on a mission to wipe out the Canaanites - a successful mission which the Bible suggest God gave them. I don't see this as supporting the notion that Israelis and Palestinians are so closely related by blood that surely god wouldn't justify ethnic cleansing. Besides that, Palestinians are Muslims!

    I'm not a big fan of suggesting that allegory means less than reality. If the Joshua story of Jericho was allegory, it would seem impossible for it to be interpreted as opposing ethnic cleansing. Maybe Israelis could be convinced that it would be wrong to slaughter every man, woman, child and animal of the Canaanites - but I think they probably know that already.

    I think this is more of the problem of trying to make the interpretation of religion to be the vehicle in this foreign policy problem.

    I doubt that this case is even valid, let alone convincing enough to change Israeli minds.
     
  20. Bob from Delaware

    Bob from Delaware New Member

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    I can see one possible source of confusion. I will try to clarify. Remove “In the case of the Holy Land” and make the first sentence, “the Bible's Old Testament is used to convince many Jews and Christians it's sacred behavior to deprive Palestinians of land rights, commit genocide against them, and to support their governments in carrying out these policies.”

    That seems like a straightforward statement. In the USA, “Christian Zionists” are led by people like John Hagee to support wars against Muslim nations in the name of Christ. They are led to support Israel taking more land from Palestinians on the basis that Palestinians are Arabs, not Israelites. Their arguments are largely based upon their interpretation of passages from the Old Testament. They helped elect our current president.

    In the USA, we regularly see one party try to put the other out of power, i.e., irrelevant. If the opposing party is powerful enough, then cooperating may be the easiest way.

    You wrote, “We don't care who someone descended from”

    Actually, we do, Will. There’s public bias and racism, but the government gets in on it with things like revoking DACA. Or Native Americans having to prove ancestry in order to receive government benefits. Ask descendants of the Nissei in WWII if who we’re descended from matters in the U.S. of A.

    “…what sacred books they read, or whether their holy books condone criminal acts.”

    Are you kidding, Will? Surely you’ve heard of profiling Muslims by the FBI & Homeland Security.

    However, if one is truly concerned with peace and isn’t on an ego trip, then it’s irrelevant how we do things here when it comes to suggesting a course of action in another place where they view things differently. The solution should be tailored to the peoples who will have to live with it, not with how we do things over in America.
     
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  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Muslims are not attempting to justify ISIS behavior. Let's remember that the people who die at the hands of ISIS are Muslims. Let's remember that in Iraq, our surge level military presence failed against AQ until we worked together with Sunnis. And, let's remember that ISIS is strongly opposed by the government of West Bank, which cooperates with the IDF in security.

    This idea of ISIS being accepted by Muslims (as a broad label) needs to die, because it is a lie that is so serious that it exacerbating problems in multiple areas.


    As for the other, our very foundation is in the rule of law. We have a concept of human rights.

    Whatever Israelis believe about their religion giving them the right to ethnically cleanse Palestine, WE have no justification for supporting that.

    You can try to explain to those Jews who see the stealing of people's homes and businesses that it isn't consistent with their religion if you want to, but my main point on this thread is more focused on America and the fact that WE are committing those crimes in proxy by funding and supporting Israel's ethnic cleansing operations.
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, the Israeli plan IS working.

    Their plan is to ethnically cleans and occupy West Bank, precluding any need to agree to anything wrt the entire population of "greater Israel".

    We've seen what happens when Palestinians attempt to ignore the calls for negotiation by their leadership and resort to violence. The USA ensures that will be a slaughter of Palestinians. And, Israel (supported by the USA) will accept that as being what is necessary to expunge "terrorism" - even though that word has NOTHING to do with defending one's personal property against a foreign invader.

    In fact, an uprising would speed up the outcome of an Israeli war causing a refugee crisis which will not be followed by a right of return for them, justified by the violence.

    Israel has a plan that WILL work if it continues to be supported by the USA. Palestinians have no military power and are dead meat unless an outside force recognizes the injustice and opposes Israel.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, I think you just misunderstood me here. As an American, I support the notion of a secular government, not a religious government. And, I'm more focused on America's role in this issue.

    So, pardon me, but I'm not excited by your conversion story, at least wrt the current problem.

    I MIGHT care about what Israelis believe.

    SO, my comment was that if you think you can change Israeli minds in favor of your religious views, then you need to demonstrate that by convincing a Rabbi somewhere.

    After all, in the end you need to convince the Likud Party, or at least the Home Party. Right?

    If you can't do that, then I think you're whole direction is running on empty.

    I think you are choosing an impossible task here, by the way. Regardless of how well you believe your religious interpretations, it really only matters what Israel believes.



    And, I think you are avoiding the fact that the theft of West Bank's best real estate is a massive economic gain for Israel as well as for individual Israeli citizens.

    This is probably NOT even a religious conflict. I know there are SOME in Israel who believe it is, but there are also those who do not.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to try to defend the various crimes the US has perpetrated. Some of the things you've mentioned have even been officially recognized by our government as horrible mistakes. And, I agree there are bigots among us.

    In fact, our bigotry toward Islam is one of the motivating factors in our decision to support Israel's humanitarian atrocities against Palestinians.

    That fact is one of the MAJOR problems in the ME conflict. That is, WE are a SIGNIFICANT part of the problem.

    Israel could not do what it is doing today were we not to support it.

    Just as an aside, your solution is not being "tailored" by those involved - it's being "tailored" by a person from Delaware who is excited by a religion that is neither Judaism nor Islam.
     
  25. Bob from Delaware

    Bob from Delaware New Member

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    In a previous comment, you said this was the best one-nation plan you'd seen. That's fine. But, there are numerous areas that people on either side will insist are deal-breakers, and in the present paradigm, they and you would be right. The best of all possible plans can't happen at this time, under the present paradigm.

    Since under the present paradigm, you feel the way to go is gather enough international pressure to push Israel to where Palestinians are satisfied, you and others following the same approach will surely convince those who support the present Israeli govt (and probably some who don't support it, too) that they need to redouble their efforts to maintain the status quo. Perhaps you'll succeed and Israel will capitulate. If you don't succeed, then there's a dead end of war waiting down the street.

    I have zero faith that pressuring Israel will lead to Israel capitulating. Consequently, the dead end is to be expected. The peace plan is the best solution available, written in a manner to make it as acceptable as can be to each respective population. I have faith Creator knows how we think and knows how we'll react when the situation arrives. Maybe when you see the dead end approaching you'll remember this conversation and share the peace plan with whomever you can. Feel free to follow your own advice and present it to top rabbis today if you so choose.

    The time to bring the peace plan to Likud's attention is the time their members realize the situation calls for this option that they'd never consider under less perilous conditions. There's nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come. But, timing is crucial. Understanding your audience is crucial.
     

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