Major Study Finds Masks Don’t Reduce COVID-19 Infection Rates <<MOD WARNING>>

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by Bluesguy, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    drunk the koolaid, can't be wrong, must believe, everyone else is wrong,

    its truly no use. Its as adamantine in its own truth as any religious cult.
     
  2. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The fact that you use an argument from the first weeks of the pandemic in america and attempt to represent it as proof facci has no credibility and its all some sort of evil government plot to strip you of your rights is truly lame and intellectually bankrupt.

    Masks dont work, besides how would it look if you had to meet another president or world leader to discuss important bigly stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    There were no studies in February showing if presymptomatic and asymptomatic transmission could occur. WHO declared a pandemic (March 11) three weeks after Fauci said that he was not in favour of national mask wearing (Feb 17th)
    You are missing the point. I did not assume "the world judged Covid as less than flu because at that time it hadn't killed many people" If you are maintaining that masks wearing should have been advised in February for covid then you also have to maintain that national mask wearing should be advised for seasonal flu too as flu was infecting and killing many more people than covid was doing in February and early March. The number of cases for covid was not enough in February to justify national mask wearing advise in February UNLESS you also say that national mask wearing should be advised for every seasonal flu season
     
  4. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    LOL I've given you the actual quotes and video of him stating "A mask is much more appropriate for someone who is infected and you're trying to prevent them from infecting other people than it is in protecting you against infection." AND "The masks are important for someone who is infected to prevent them from infecting someone else" with links

    Your statement "Fauci running around telling people masks are ineffective and nobody needs them" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them.

    Your statement "goes on national TV and tells everyone nobody should be wearing a mask" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them

    Your statement "He didn’t recommend masks to the infected general population" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I provided links to numerous studies published years before C19 that provide plenty of evidence for mask usage. I linked to a meta analysis containing several such studies. It’s fine if you want to call Fauci incompetent. If you say there wasn’t sufficient evidence on March 8, but there was on April 3 then you are calling Fauci incompetent. Because there was the same level of evidence on March 8. But Fauci isn’t incompetent. He’s a liar. He knew in February and early March recommending masks to the public was necessary.

    Donald has no reason to supply masks when his top expert was saying we didn’t need to be wearing them and they weren’t very effective anyway.

    No. According to your logic, the general public doesn’t need vaccines now. There’s no reason for Americans to be injecting vaccines into their bodies. :)
    You fell for media lies. The same information existed in late February that existed in April when masks were finally recommended. I have linked to actual research containing that evidence. Business Insider is as ignorant of facts as you are.
    That’s cute. Saying I get my ideas from a Rubio the end of December. I was pointing out Fauci’s lies in October.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?posts/1072165721/
    LOL. It’s probably true Rubio doesn’t know much about masks or viruses. But neither do you. My contributions on C19 here on PF are my own based on empirical evidence. I don’t care about the political partisanship of any of it.
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed I’ve quoted lies Fauci told in July as well. In other threads I’ve pointed out false statements based on denial of evidence he’s made this last fall.

    You will fail of course to back up your assertions I’m worried about some government plot. You clearly have me confused with someone else. All my posts are based on verifiable facts.

    You just claimed masks don’t work. Why don’t you provide empirical evidence masks don’t work. Go...
     
  7. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OMG. ITS A MOVING TARGET and as more information and conditions change the science says the opinion changes. That isn't a lie like, its a democratic hoax, it'll be gone by the summer, just let natural herd immunity, etc etc etc. I bet you contributed to stop the steal.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Oh. So Fauci was lying about the masks needing to be saved for healthcare workers. Or are you claiming healthcare workers were all infected in February and March?

    This is why the pandemic rages on. Nobody can think things through.

    This statement by Fauci is/was a lie.

    You are now on record accusing Fauci of lying about what the masks he was supposedly saving were for. It’s fascinating what kind of silliness you guys will make up to defend a lie.
     
  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    No. The target was very clear in late February and early March. I’ve explained in detail how we knew about the effectiveness of masks then and the potential for asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread of respiratory viruses. I’ve linked to numerous published studies showing the effectiveness of masks that were available to Fauci at the time of his initial false statements. @truth and justice provided clear evidence Fauci knew about asymptomatic spread in February, and I provided a quote of Fauci in July saying he didn’t know about asymptomatic spread in March. Very little of what you are told by your chosen “betters” is true.

    I’ll bet you can’t provide any evidence I contributed to stop the steal. Why would I be upset about a dude I never voted for losing an election?
     
  10. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    wow.

    very little of what told by my chosen lesser is true by corrollory. Now I wonder where you fit in?

    So in other words, you'd take my bet? Or is this just another aspect with anobsession with evidence in support your contrarian quasi scientific perspectives. Not that dunning kruger isn't the foundation of dismissing expertise and fact or anything.
     
  11. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is I’ve provided facts and exhaustive evidence to support my posts.

    You are welcome to provide evidence the majority of studies I’ve linked to on efficacy of masks are inaccurate and did not exist before February of 2020.

    You are welcome to provide evidence Fauci was ignorant of the existence of presymptomatic and asymptomatic spread of every respiratory virus, including coronaviruses, in February and March.

    You are welcome to provide evidence that masks are less effective in controlling a pandemic when infection rates are low as compared to when community spread is rampant.

    You are welcome to elaborate on why Fauci would say masks were only for infected people, yet in the same interview claim masks were needed for uninfected healthcare workers.

    You are welcome to provide evidence any of the quotes I’ve provided of Fauci are incorrect.

    You are welcome to provide studies showing homemade cotton masks are as effective as N95 masks in mitigating spread of SARS-CoV-2.

    If you can not provide any of the above, you are proven to be an empty vessel easily led astray. If you can not provide any of the above requested evidence you will be formally conceding that I am correct and your argument is nothing but an amalgamation of fallacies.
     
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  12. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    So if I said that children should be careful when crossing a road then according to your logic that means adults don't need to be careful!

    Here is 557 now on record making false statements about Fauci:
    FAUCI statements: "A mask is much more appropriate for someone who is infected and you're trying to prevent them from infecting other people than it is in protecting you against infection." AND "The masks are important for someone who is infected to prevent them from infecting someone else".

    557 statement "Fauci running around telling people masks are ineffective and nobody needs them" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them.

    557 statement "goes on national TV and tells everyone nobody should be wearing a mask" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them

    557 statement "He didn’t recommend masks to the infected general population" FALSE He stated that infected people should wear them

    And you have the nerve to call Fauci a liar! And as for your nonsense paragraph at the end, HCWs working in a covid ward will be surrounded by covid patients unlike any people walking around the streets in February hence why Fauci repeatedly emphasized the word "NOW"
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  13. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Another fake statement from 557. I did not say or provide evidence "Fauci knew about asymptomatic spread in February". I wrote, quote, "There were no studies in February showing if presymptomatic and asymptomatic transmission could occur.", AND "At the time there were no studies showing that asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission occurred for this virus".

    Fauci also stated the same in February "There is asymptomatic transmission in other infections. The extent to which that is impacting the coronavirus epidemic, we don't know."

    And here is a link from the NEMJ stating that the initial approach assumed that covid-19 was like SARS for which asymtomatic transmission was very rare.
    When Covid-19 burst onto the global scene, public health officials initially deployed interventions that were used to control severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2003, including symptom-based case detection and subsequent testing to guide isolation and quarantine. This initial approach was justified by the many similarities between SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2,

    Why don't you provide a link to a study published in February or early March showing asymptomatic transmission of Covid-19 was proven since you are supposedly all about the science.
     
  14. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Covid-19 was treated just like it was similar to SARS:
    When Covid-19 burst onto the global scene, public health officials initially deployed interventions that were used to control severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2003, including symptom-based case detection and subsequent testing to guide isolation and quarantine. This initial approach was justified by the many similarities between SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2,
     
  15. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You are not using the quote function because I’ve never claimed those statements by Fauci are lies. Ever.
    Fauci said this the first week of March.
    This statement was a blatant lie. This was the very best time for people in the US to wear masks.

    Community transmission was confirmed in the US by this time. We knew community transmission would be prevalent. Because we were testing very few individuals we knew infection rates were much higher than confirmed cases. Fauci knew there were infected individuals contributing to community spread in the US and he said “Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks”. This is a blatant lie or unprecedented incompetence.
    Above is the direct quote. It’s a lie. He did not recommend infected people wear them. He knew there were infected people walking around the US and he said there “was no reason to be walking around with masks”.
    He did not. If he had, you would quote him.
    What does nerve have to do with anything? The man is a pathological liar. Does it take nerve for you or I either one to point out Trump’s lies or anyone else’s lies?

    If Fauci was being honest when he said masks were for infected people then he lied when he said healthcare workers needed them. You can’t have it both ways. They are conflicting statements. Both can not be true.

    There were all kinds of infected people walking around in February. If there weren’t, there wouldn’t have been any need for masks for healthcare workers. LOL. If there wasn’t community spread, there weren’t going to be patients needing treatment.

    How can the same mask protect a healthcare worker but not provide protection for an uninfected person at wal-mart?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  16. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    LOL You even contradict yourself in your posts - 1st line you say he did not recommend, 2nd line you again say he did not then in the 3rd line you say "he said masks were for infected people"!!

    And I did quote Fauci. I even provided links from where those quotes came from post 1369
     
  17. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    The quotes you provided of Fauci confirm he knew about asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread of respiratory viruses. Below is evidence he either knew about prevalent pre and asymptomatic spread or he’s incompetent. In July he claimed he didn’t recommend masks early because it wasn’t clear such transmission “could” occur. I’ve provided links to that interview and pull quotes from it as well.

    Below are links showing Fauci lied and you are wrong about this statement of yours: "At the time there were no studies showing that asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission occurred for this virus".
    Anybody who was treating SARS-CoV-2 like SARS in February or March is/was a buffoon. In February we were seeing up to 100 deaths A DAY from C19. There were only about 780 TOTAL deaths from SARS.

    Now, a little more education for you. Of course asymptomatic transmission of SARS was low. There were only 8100 confirmed cases—TOTAL worldwide.
    Sure. Here’s a sample. One from January 2020.
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2001468

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762028
    Here’s an interesting piece on what we knew China was hiding about asymptomatics.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...clude-asymptomatic-covid-19-carriers-data?amp
    Bottom line, Fauci knew we should be using masks to mitigate community spread. But he lied.
    To be clear, a competent epidemiologist who’s also a public health official shouldn’t need “proof” asymptomatic and presymptomatic are prevalent before recommending mitigations. Remember hand washing was recommended based on previous knowledge of respiratory viruses without studies on SARS-CoV-2. :)
     
  18. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. The claim masks are for infected people is not the same as recommending masks. Two totally different things. For example, you believe masks are effective, but you don’t recommend their use where most appropriate.

    You and Fauci are very similar. You both know the truth, but peddle something else.

    Fauci knew there were infected people walking around in February and March, yet he specifically said; “Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks”.
     
  20. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. I was not aware of this. Unfortunately even though the Koch Institute had this information they did not notify NEJM so the paper was published. I can’t find a retraction of the NEJM article. Do you know if it was retracted?

    I’m glad you caught this. I’m adamant my sources be valid.

    Now, my point stands because I provided other evidence as well. Two other links confirming knowledge of asymptomatic spread in the time period you asked for.
     
  21. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don't know if it was retracted.

    Your Jama link has so many alarm bells. There is no evidence that patient 1 was even infected - 3 negative tests and 1 positive test at a time when test kits were not reliable. Patient 2 or patient 3 could have been infected by a different person who also traveled from Wuhan on the same transport as patient 1 or they could have been contaminated by droplets from an infected person that landed on patient 1 - and it's not unreasonable to presume patients 2 & 3 met patient 1 at a train station or airport. This is just an anecdotal study with many flaws - it is not a scientific study.

    Your other link is dated march 28th which is over a month after Fauci made his comments about mask usage and the link is not evidence of asymptomatic transmission - the link is more to do with reported numbers of cases.

    Asymptomatic transmission of other corona-viruses is very rare and in February/early March there were no studies showing that covid-19 would act any differently to previous corona viruses other than anecdotal isolated suspicions. All that was known is that some people are asymptomatic to the disease and covid-19 seemed more contagious.
     
  22. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    And that was not about masks worn by the general public of China / South Korea that Fauci was talking about.

    I already sourced that those masks do not really work that well.
    So you can quit calling Fauci a liar.

    He said that healthcare workers and the sick must have them, hence they do work. Them using the masks is using the scares resources to the best of use.

    That's incorrect. You refuse to acknowledge Fauci gave a priority to health care workers and the sick.
    He made it his POINT in that internview. You keep neverminding it and so cook up a falacy.

    You're following Rubio and he was wrong about the elections where the media is right.

    Indeed. And you picked Rubio's lies 2 weeks ago.
     
  23. Enuf Istoomuch

    Enuf Istoomuch Well-Known Member

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    Utter nonsense. The study also stated how there were many failures in adherence to mask wearing, to social distancing and other factors.

    A mask of adequate design, properly fitted, is but a tool. One tool in a systematic approach. Failure to learn, to pay attention and adhere to protocol will defeat any tool or decrease its effectiveness.

    It's as simple as that.
     
  24. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Seems like it would be retracted if it was really in error. Either way, let’s throw it out. Good catch.
    It’s what we use in the interim. Formal studies often take months to complete, be accepted, be peer reviewed, and printed. The above study was part of the information South Korea used to make their decision to mask before the C19 pandemic there was completely out of control. We didn’t get a formal peer reviewed study on mask usage for C19 until months after masks were MANDATED in many places. Are you upset that happened without a “scientific study”?

    I’ve asked this before, but never had anyone respond. What formal studies on intubating C19 patients existed before venting such patients was adopted? What formal studies existed on fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 to prompt recommendations to wash hands and disinfect, leading to massive shortages of hand sanitizers and disinfectants that affected healthcare workers negatively? What about social distancing? China implemented social distancing before formal studies were published. We did as well.

    To be bunt, a public health official epidemiologist waiting for formal peer reviewed research before recommending known effective mitigations for a novel infectious disease isn’t only lunacy, it’s morally reprehensible.
    Yes, that’s why I didn’t include it with the actual research letters. It’s reporting after the fact on information about asymptomatics China was withholding during the time period you requested evidence for. They were hiding asymptotic spread by failing to even count asymptomatic cases.
    As I stated previously, there is a lot of heterogeneity concerning asymptomatic transmission of viruses. It has been observed in all respiratory viruses we’ve studied, as you admit. If you want to try and pin down exact rates for each coronavirus, good luck. We don’t know what the asymptomatic rate or asymptomatic transmission rate of C19 is and we’ve had millions of cases to study over a period of a year. We do have quite a bit of evidence coronaviruses that cause common cold spread asymptotically and presymptomatically.

    To the point of not having studies in February showing SARS-CoV-2 would behave differently than what we knew about SARS (more on thst below), it’s irrelevant. As I’ve already pointed out, we were already seeing DAILY deaths from C19 around 13% of TOTAL deaths from SARS. Same with confirmed cases. We had seen China “report” 2500 cases a day, when total “confirmed” cases of SARS was about 8100. Only an incompetent epidemiologist could conclude in late February C19 should be compared to SARS. The only logical conclusion at that point would have been C19 is orders of magnitude worse from a transmission perspective, and all mitigations that helped with SARS ought to be implemented immediately.

    Now, you want to go down that path, so let’s do that. The SARS outbreak we’ve already established was minuscule compared to C19. It lasted about 6 months. Guess what Asian countries did to mitigate transmission? Yep, used masks in public. Here’s a study from Hong Kong on the results.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323085/
    And a pull quote.
    So, if you want to use SARS as a cop out for Fauci, it’s a fail. He had access to reams of data pointing to the need for public mask usage in March. This meta analysis that is still one of the best justifications for mask usage today included about 18 studies on mask usage with SARS in existence since the mid 2000’s.
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

    If Fauci was using SARS as a template, it should have led him to recommend masks on March 8, not minimize their value and say they shouldn’t be in community use.

    Now a bit more on asymptomatic spread of SARS. It’s really impossible to quantify. Throughout much of the “pandemic “ very little testing was done that could determine how much asymptomatic spread occurred. In fact, very little meaningful testing was done period. Of the 28 or so reported cases of SARS in the US, only 8 were lab confirmed. PCR tests then were worse for SARS than C19. Many confirmed cases were identified by serological (antibody) after recovery. There was very little data in real time to determine the extent of pre and asymptomatic spread. What we do know is mostly comparable to the case studies I presented from early in the C19 pandemic. In many studies, including one I linked to above, a good percentage of suspected and reported cases were not knowingly exposed to symptomatic individuals, providing some evidence of asymptomatic spread.

    What we did learn from SARS is that novel coronavirus can be quite deadly. We are lucky the case fatality rate of C19 is less than for SARS or the lack of early mask recommendations would have killed thousands more.
     
  25. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Provide evidence.
    Fauci claimed homemade masks are equivalent to the masks purchased at surgical supply stores that he was trying to save for healthcare workers by lying to the public.

    Fauci lied repeatedly. That makes him a liar.
    But he specifically told sick individuals not to wear masks when it would have benefited society the most. He also claimed masks were most effective for infected individuals and then said healthy healthcare workers needed them most. One of those statements is a lie because they contradict themselves.
    A lie is a lie no matter why it’s told. His “reasons” are irrelevant.
    LOL. I’m uninterested in your diversions. Politicians are nuts. I’ll stick with science thank you very much!
    Provide evidence my friend. You are making statements about me you can’t provide evidence are true. That’s very Trumpish. LOL
     

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