Maybe I'll change my mind about Trump's Senate trial

I did not support the first impeachment effort about that Ukraine phone call. I thought a censure would suffice and I didn't like the fact that the effort wasn't bipartisan.

I did support the second impeachment effort, because like many conservatives such as Liz Cheney, I did believe that the president acted against American's democratic institutions and Constitution, and there is little that fits better what the Framers likely had in mind when they created the impeachment device. If this is not impeachable, I don't know what else would qualify.

It's not even just the incitement of the mob. It's also his failure to act when the mob turned violent (dereliction of duty) and all his efforts to subvert the constitutional process (such as pressuring Pence to illegally overturn the results, pressuring Georgia electoral officials to find more votes for him...). The whole thing was terrible and doesn't pass the smell test even if he didn't explicitly say to the mob "go invade the Capitol and kill a few people." The latter would be required to convict him of sedition in a court of law. But it is not necessary to convict him politically, in the Senate, where there isn't the same burden of proof.

So, for accountability, I was rooting for the Senate to convict him and vote for barring Trump from running for office again.

After this inauguration and President Biden's repeated calls for unity, and his kind gesture of calling the letter Trump left for him "very generous," I may be changing my mind about what I'm rooting for.

Former president Trump is (thankfully) gone. Convicting him in the Senate will only accomplish the barring of his future electoral ambitions. However, these ambitious are likely extremely futile. Most decent Americans - and especially, independents like me - were appalled at the events on 1/6/2021, and thus very unlikely to vote for him if he runs again in 2024. Without independents, neither party can win presidential elections.

And even many of his followers are turning against him. The QAnon types are disappointed... many radicals felt that he let them down by condemning them explicitly in two recorded videos and he didn't pardon any of the insurrectionists. Several Republican elected officials and other influential conservative voices have explicitly turned against him, too - even Mitch McConnell said that he fed lies to the crowd, about the election.

Does he still have a sizable base of followers? Sure, the die-hards... but they are not numerous enough to elect him in 2024 without decent Republicans and independents. His popularity has cleared dropped after 1/6/2021. What is left of his base is not bigger than some 35% of all Americans. You can't win a presidential election with only 35% support.

Prosecutors are likely to come after him for many other matters unrelated to 1/6/2021. They may or may not prevail, but this now seems to be a more appropriate forum, now that the former president is a civilian, than an impeachment trial in the Senate.

The House has impeached him a second time. He clearly didn't want this impeachment, and felt diminished by it. He is now the only president impeached twice, and he was impeached more times than he was elected. That's gotta hurt. Isn't it sufficient punishment? If it isn't, let the courts look at his possible wrongdoings in criminal and civil matters.

In the name of unity, here is what I'd like to see now: Biden would ask Pelosi, in the name of unity, to refrain from ever sending the article of impeachment to the Senate. If she does send it anyway, then Biden would appeal to the senators to have a short cursory trial and acquit.

I think that now, the best for how to deal with Trump (other than the courts) is ostracism. Let him be (as far as political matters are concerned). Don't pay much attention to him. His influence will progressively fade. Let the Republican presidential hopefuls turn against him like revisionist rabid dogs. They will tear him apart if he tries to run again. I don't even believe that he will ever try to run again.

Actually for the Dems, convicting him is detrimental. To the Dems, it is interesting if Trump keeps his political rights to run and keeps threatening the GOP's establishment (even if he ultimately doesn't run). If there is one party that will benefit from convicting him, it is the GOP. If they don't move against him, he will continue to divide the party (just the sheer threat of running will derail their primaries and set Republican against Republican) and cause defeat in 2024.

Trump who is revengeful will likely turn against the GOP no matter what, even if they don't convict him. If he keeps his political rights he may actually start a new party just to screw the GOP. If the center-left party remains united (the Dems; at least united on paper, given that they do have their own problem with extremists) but the center-right party fractures in two, a moderate center-right party and an extreme right party, these two smaller parties will never win a presidential election.

At this time, I think the Dems should just walk away from this, and let the GOP deal with Trump. The Dems will appear magnanimous and conciliatory, while the GOP will have to deal with a Trump in full possession of his political rights to run for office.

This is precisely why Mitch, who is extremely politically savvy, is talking about the need for the GOP to break ties with Trump, and has been explicitly talking against him. I think Mitch will try to convince 17 Republican senators to convict. I'm not sure if he will succeed because many of them still fear Trump. But they would be wise to do it, in terms of the future of their party.

The Dems? Logically speaking, they shouldn't be pushing for a conviction, any longer. The alleged danger of more erratic actions, the nuclear codes (that's histrionics), etc., is gone. He is no longer in office. What is left is barring him from running, which is much more beneficial to the GOP than to the Dems. So if the Dems are smart, they will let go of this.

Opinions?

 

The minute Trump no longer has to be a choirboy to keep McConnell and his troupe of republicans from voting for impeachment, is the minute he starts to play his incendiary trumpet. I am in favor of prolonging this process if for no other reason so that the FBI and DOJ can infiltrate, and neuter the threat behind Trumps band of terrorists. Lets have a trial.

 

Good point. I hadn't thought of it this way. With two lines you may have destroyed my whole long argumentation in my OP.

 

They weren't Trump's and they riot as was pre-planned and had nothing to do with Trump's speech as the DOJ be indictment of the oath keepers on conspiracy charges clearly shows. Any Republican senator who votes for this crap and all house members who went along with it will have political careers that are DOA by 2023. Some maybe sooner by the time the recall petitions come calling

 

They were Trump's terrorists. He fed them, nurtured them and inspired them and they did exactly as expected.

 

We did not see all these state riots people were predicting based on some FBI intelligence reports. There are two reasons. First, Trump sent signals that he wanted his followers to do a lot more 'standing down', and a lot less 'standing by' That is directly due to this impeachment IMO. Second, media is covering a long unpleasant process that starts with the FBI identifying the rioters, arresting them and filing increasingly severe federal charges and heading towards grand juries. Not a lot of them really thought this through, and I will wager most of them have not saved a lot of money for their personal 'legal fund'. They do not have employers clamoring to keep them on the payroll after reading about these charges, and they are imagining an impact on their spouses, their kids, their parents as they become social pariahs as anti-democratic instagators.

Its a lot to think about before you decide to throw a brick or smash a window or attack a cop.

Time really is our friend on this and on this issue at least, so is Mitch McConnell because he is giving Biden and the FBI more time before Trump unleashes.

 

You know how some politicians say that Antifa is an idea and not a domestic terror organization (not that this is even a useful framing)? Well now ideas are considered domestic terror threats (note that DoD reassigned a dozen or so NG from the Capitol for having "potential" links to "questionable" political beliefs) after the 6th, but it's still not addressing that politically-motivated mob violence is still occuring since last May, and it isn't MAGA or Q doing it.

"It's an idea man" has been flipped against the right so blatantly it's like people are asleep.

 

Oh great so Trump didn't tweet "come to DC on the 6th, it will be wild." Yeah, it was planned in advance, with his blessing and instigation. Have you heard that the people who applied for the permits for the gathering were his campaign staff? Sure, pal, it wasn't Trump... Regarding DOA political careers, we'll see about that. A lot of people, for example independents, may vote for them for their courage to stand up to the attacks on Democracy.

 

Dropping the impeachment would probably be strategically good for the dems on the short term. But it's morally unsatisfactory, as it shows weakeness in the defense of democrcy; so, bad on the long term.

Moreover, there is now talk it could be done within 3 days.

It will be the repubs' decision, then.

 

Unwarranted assumption. A party atmosphere isn't necessarily a riot. And the planning started weeks before not days.

 

There is no evidence to support that.

 

Nobody cares about whether you will "change" your mind except you. My biggest concern is that with Trump out of the way, the open oppression of his 70 million voters will now begin to the applause of the MSM. Their opinion of the little people was shown when they allowed their businesses to be burned and looted without doing anything other than laud it. I suspect that they will now try to destroy middle class communities all across Red America. Their weapon of choice will be HUD. You can't have riots in Red areas unless you import people into the community who are willing to do it.

 

Did you call the Senate yet and give them your marching orders?

 

Trump has incited these people with his lies about election fraud ever since the election. Actually before that. Listen to Liz Cheney's words: he summoned this mob. He lit them on fire. He did nothing to stop them once they got violent. Without the president they wouldn't have done what they did. Listen to Mitch McConnell: he fed them lies.

Whether this amounts to proof of sedition in a court of law beyond reasonable doubt, I'm not sure, and actually I think not, given the higher burden of proof. But a political trial in the Senate? Absolutely it does get to the level that the Framers established as High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Not just the mob, but also the relentless attack on Democracy, trying to get the VP to illegally overturn the elections, and calling Georgia's SoS to "find" him some votes. A president swears an oath to defend the Constitution. Trump clearly failed that oath, when he tried to strong-arm the VP into acting beyond the role that is assigned to him by the Constitution and by US federal code. This alone is impeachable, not to forget the dereliction of his duties to protect, by not doing anything about the violence being committed by the mob he incited. Pence had to summon the National Guard! Meanwhile Trump was tailgating in the White House, gleeful about what was going on.

Look, you want to be blind to what happened, be my guest; it's your problem, not mine. History won't judge kindly the people who enabled Trump and condoned him in his clear violations of his oath.

 

It's not about caring about what I do. It's just a debating point, here in this forum where we do just that, we debate political opinions. Wonderful that you needed to start your response by this jab. As for "they will try to destroy middle class communities all across Red America" you forgot to add the sky will fall.

 

No need. My senator (a Republican; he got my vote) has already said that he believes that Trump has committed impeachable offenses but he is unlikely to convict.

 

There may not be hard evidence but it was obvious to everyone who followed the events on that day.
It may have been planned days before, but who could be sure Trump wasn't aware?

 

I have read enough of your posts to realize that your opinion is downloaded to you via the MSM. Your opinion NEVER varies from their opinion by even a hair. You won't find me in that kind of agreement with any MSM outlet (including all the ones you classify as far right).

Please don't take the above statement as a pejorative. That is how the MSM is supposed to work. Most Americans have their opinions downloaded to them. The true threat to their narrative are the people who simply quit looking at or listening to them and choose alternative outlets not owned by billionaires.

 

He regains a lot of support as time passes and the MSM blames every conservative in existence for the Capitol. Being blamed for something you had no part of is a good reminder of how MSM is fake news and is lying even about Trump's part played in the capital.

 

That's just it to charge a crime you have to Know some one was involved you can't just think it. You have to prove it and since it was Pelosi who blocked reinforcement of the capitol police by available NG units, I could using your logic say that it was her riot because she made it possible.

 

Yes, possibly, like I just said to another poster. There is one matter in which I don't rely on the MSM: Medicine. But outside of my profession, I don't have a crystal ball so what I try to get as far as information goes, necessarily will come filtered through the media, since I'm not there in person. I don't think that it's just the left-leaning media that misinforms, though. Righ-leaning media does as well.

 

No. Absolutely not.

He has to be impeached, and he has to be tried, and that trial has to be public.

Who knows, he could even be exonerated. Either way, the air MUST BE CLEARED.

The purpose of a trial is one of two possible outcomes

1. To convict, to confirm suspicions, that they were true and just.

2. To exonerate, to clear the air of all suspicions, that they were false and the result of misunderstanding events and/or law.

We impeach because of a preponderance of events constituting probable cause, creating burgeoning suspicions, which must be dealt with because of their weight and burdensome effect on the body politic.

As a compromise, I would support a delay to allow Biden's 'first 100 days' to be more fruitful, given COVID is priority, but ONLY because of COVID, would I support a delay. However, if Biden and Pelosi ( it's really up to her, but she could be influenced by whatever Biden urges her to do ) decide that it must be dealt with immediately, I'll abide by their decision.

But....let us be clear on the overriding point;

There can be NO 'healing' without accountability. Without accountability, healing is a myth.

 

I disagree. It serves the purpose of re-establishing there will be consequences when a prez "act(s) against American's democratic institutions and Constitution," and in so doing violates his oath of office.

 

Wrong.

Trump has been poisoning the mind of his followers for over 4 years, and the proud boys, et al, looked upon Trump has their leader.

The very fact that they were planning it does not negate the fact that Trump has been filling their minds with hate and the desire to commit evil deeds because he's been poisoning their minds for over 4 years, at every rally, Trump declared 'the only way democrats can win is if they rig the election'. He said this over and over and over, not to mention that 'democrats were doing to take away their religion, democrats were going to turn the nation into Venezuela' ad nauseum. All the Jan 6 speech did was give them the resolve that they had already manifested as the result of years of his poisoning.

Sorry, you are as wrong as wrong can be.

 

This narrative is the same tripe that Trump has been poisoning the minds of his followers with, that 'democrats are going to destroy the middle class' democrats are going to impose socialism and make America like Venezuela" democrats back the looters ( total bullshit )

What tripe, what bullcrap.

I've really had it with those on the right who push this fantasy. And the only reason you do it is to poison other's minds in the vague hope if forwards the right wing agenda. This fantasy is what drives the extremists to commit atrocities.

And what is that agenda? Tax breaks for the super rich? End of a woman's right to abortion?

And for you guys, this is what 'freedom' means?

God save us from your delusions.