Meet the KGB Spies Who Invented Fake News

indeed.....there are spotty Macedonian teenagers that specialise in it do you need directions to them? What sort of fake news would you like to read?

 

Thank you for that. I read the reviews and it sounds terrific. I'm out of the country now but will buy it the day after my return.

Here is one you might enjoy on the art of propaganda in Europe, but mostly France. The great Jean Francois Revel wrote a number of books on the subject but because it applies to the French, rather than to the English speaking world, it's more like goldfish bowl observations.

https://billmuehlenberg.com/2004/09/26/a-review-of-anti-americanism-by-jean-francois-revel/

 

I've just read some.

 

Thank you for your service to this country, Mark Felt. Tricky Dick was trash but Dirty Donnie is making him look like a really nice person.

 

Mark Felt is dead.

 

Yes, about 10 years. So ?

 

So you were thanking a dead man. You must be quite religious, right?

 

Well that's million dollar question! An interesting thought though with the internet anybody can now be their own reporter, columnist or producer and it seems that a lot of people don't actually mind that the information they absorb is "fake" as long as it meets their political narrative - they look for news they want to read. Thus if there is a demand for that type of information then there are people that will supply it. As we mentioned above about the commoditisation of news be it factual or fake.

I think there will always be news out there that is verifiable and factual and which has been checked, however, I think the issue is whether or not it will remain mainstream or not. I think there is now such an ingrained mistrust of journalists that maybe it will be marginalised - there are still people that want this sort of fact based news but I think for many people that kind of news has no value. The Washington Post has the rubric "democracy dies in darkness", I think we're going to have to grub around in the darkness for the odd light soon.

 

Do you work from the premise that everyone tells lies or is stupid and then calibrate what you are hearing or reading to a version of reality as you see it?

 

Propaganda is a con game, and you have to be somewhat intelligent to be conned

 

It could be worse, they could be real.

Artificial intelligence should be easily detected, it can't lie as readily

 

Another is to ask if someone has ever supported the archetypical right wing tyrant Auguste Pinochet. Same/same.

 

While disinformation is a kind of propaganda, not all propaganda contains disinformation. We can safely say that disinformation is a subset of the wider method of conveying targeted messages called "propaganda".

The main difference between western democracies and dictatorships is the ability of citizens to speak their minds without fear of repercussions. Freedom of speech, freedom of choice, individual liberties - these are the wonders of western democracies. Democracies allow for changes in the system, creating dynamic, evolving, progressing societies. Dictatorships suffocate individual initiatives showing even a remote deviation from official position. Information coming from western democracies is thus very diverse, and easily verifiable as curious members of the society are free to stick long noses into any narrative, including official propaganda. Information coming from dictatorships must be state sanctioned, curious members of the society often having the habit of suddenly disappearing from this world.

Can you imagine such a forum on a server in Russia, Venezuela, or Iran? I can't.

Truth is not subjective. Truth is what is. Our perception of reality is subjective.

Societies have been subject to mass delusions from the dawn of human history. Some examples are "the Earth is flat", "there are gods on the Olympus", "black cats and 13 bring bad luck". I'd say the modern humans are less susceptible to mass delusions because we became aware of both their existence and the reasons for their existence.

Claims such as yours regarding the evils of western democracies without a speck of proof are a glorious example of attempts to spread mass delusions about said democracies. "Governments everywhere" censor political content on the internet? Seriously?

Define "post truth world". Define "truth". Define "pre-post-truth world". Emotionally loaded terms may sound good to a democracies-are-bad-theory believer, but a serious discussion requires firm ground to build arguments on, and emotionally loaded not defined terms are never a firm ground.

 

Not absolutely sure, but I used to read his or her posts on various issues and I never got that impression.

Of course I disagree, for the intellectually astute, that involves much more than just being able to process information accurately is not so easily taken in by clear and evident propaganda. But understand, I have seen loads of credentialed Phds, who were not intellectually astute, but rather highly conditioned, non thinking beings.

As I have seen people with only a high school education, but well read, who were very astute people, and much harder pull an intellectual driven con game on. I think intellectually astute people are all deeply self aware, and deeply intellectually honest, yielding integrity. They are very concerned with facts, and discern the intellectual paralysis that partisanship inevitably yields. These people have no problem seeing the sin and hypocrisy on both sides, instead of being blind to their own. I don't think one can be educated to be an astute intellect, for you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. And we don't mind, some of us, to corrupt the thinking process, in order to push an agenda.

So, I guess our opinions on this issue differ.

 

Or we could say that this is a little bit of a word salad. Propaganda specifically exists to promote a biased point of view. Here is the definition:

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

You are speaking in generalizations with the intent of spreading the idea that western democracies don't use propaganda or that their propaganda is benign. Yes we are entitled to speak your mind but ask yourself what voices are allowed to be heard in the public sphere? I would argue that those who try to criticize Israel's policies towards those in the territories it occupies are pushed to the margins and will never have a strong voice in the mainstream media because of the filters of lobby groups and media watchdogs who have the resources to shut down those voices through activism.

You probably cannot see the official propaganda that is pushing your country into possibly another disastrous war in the ME and trying to manufacture consent of the population for a war that does not serve the interests of the American people but the purpose of the power structure of the state.

You can't see it as propaganda because it works on people at an emotional level. This thread is actually illustrating my point by beating the drums of war against a nation that is no threat to the USA.

Sure, RT has open forums and gives voices to people like Chris Hedges and Richard Wolff who are verboten in the US sphere. Not that Russia is a open state by any means. There are many elements of Russian conservatism that I despise. Iran is certainly repressive but Rouhani was trying to introduce reforms. Ironically, pulling out of the JCPOA has strengthened the hardliners and weakened moderates like Rouhani.

US routinely jails protesters and represses activism such as that at Standing Rock or black activists such as Rakem Balogun. There is a long history of brutal repression of civil rights and labour leaders. Your country had some of the most bloody labour wars anywhere in the world and Eugene Debs was incarcerated for social activism and pacifism.

This is all subjective on your part. You are coming from a position that the US is a moral authority because it has a modicum of democracy - a democracy that is being eroded every day by the corporate state but you have trouble seeing how your country is just as violent, repressive and brutal towards it's enemies, both perceived and real - because propaganda works.

Lol, so you think you understand absolute truth, huh? Clearly you've never read Godel or Hegel. Probably never read Plato either. How is our perception of reality different from truth?

Societies have been subject to mass delusions from the dawn of human history. Some examples are "the Earth is flat", "there are gods on the Olympus", "black cats and 13 bring bad luck". I'd say the modern humans are less susceptible to mass delusions because we became aware of both their existence and the reasons for their existence.

Where did I ever say western democracies are evil. Do you think they are above critique? This is what you seem to be saying is that western democracies are good because they have some moral legitimacy that makes their crimes and wars and repression above criticism.

Yes, your political content is being censored as we speak. There is a noticeable difference in the kinds of results certain queries get on search engines and the Net Neutrality Act changes are a direct threat to free flow of information on the internet.

{quote]Define "post truth world". Define "truth". Define "pre-post-truth world". Emotionally loaded terms may sound good to a democracies-are-bad-theory believer, but a serious discussion requires firm ground to build arguments on, and emotionally loaded not defined terms are never a firm ground.[/QUOTE]

post-truth in British
or posttruth (ˌpəʊstˈtruːθ)
adjective
of or relating to a culture in which appeals to the emotions tend to prevail over facts and logical arguments

The definition of a government that in it's own words using alternate facts and where lies and appeals to emotional language such as "fake news" "enemy of the people" or "the greatest economy ever' are taken as truths?

You really can't see propaganda working in America in 2018 and in you own life??????

 

Or we could say that you ignored the definition of "disinformation". Disinformation is intentionally false or inaccurate information, spread deliberately. It's an act of deception. Propaganda is not necessarily intentionally false. White nationalists, or missionaries, for instance, are true believers, their propaganda is not meant to deceive, but to spread their beliefs.

My intent is seemingly completely lost on you. I never said that democracies don't do propaganda. I said that democracies and their propaganda can be - and usually are - criticized from within, and citizens can hold their governments responsible. Not so in dictatorships.

Building straw men is not exactly the best way to maintain a healthy debate. You couldn't be more wrong about my country. This could be a great example of how disinformation works, but the thread is about USSR. By the way, the Soviet Bear is responsible not only for aggressively demonizing Israel, Zionism, and Jews, through disinformation back in the 60s, as part of their effort to gain influence in the Muslim Middle East, but also for training terrorists for terror attacks in Israel. I wonder if there's any mention about it in the NYT series about Soviet disinformation.

There's no such thing as absolute truth. Or at least we can't know if there's such thing as absolute truth.

Perception of reality is heavily influenced by factors beyond control. For instance, the words "sky is blue" sound true, except for the inhabitants of Pingelap. Google it, it's a real eye opener regarding the distinction between truth and perception of reality. "Blue" is only a perception in the brain.

Well, this is another shining example of difference between truth and perception. You perceive things I never said.

The truth is that I said that democracies are better because they allow criticism and progress.

This forum wouldn't be possible if what you claim is true.

Search engines have settings, you might want to try changing those.

Are you saying that American culture is limited to elections and government policies? That sounds more than a bit odd.

 

According to definition disinformation:

"Analysts generally agree that disinformation is always purposeful and not necessarily composed of outright lies or fabrications. It can be composed of mostly true facts, stripped of context or blended with falsehoods to support the intended message, and is always part of a larger plan or agenda.”

https://www.ned.org/issue-brief-dis...from-propaganda-misinformation-and-fake-news/

But my point was that even very intelligent people can be fooled by propaganda so how are you going to hold you government responsible if you don't understand that you are being subjected to propaganda? The perfect example was the Committee on Public Information. It was a glowing success in building consent for America's entry into WWI yet this happened in what you are calling a western democracy.

What strawman was I building? How am I wrong about your country? I am arguing that propaganda has been around much longer and is far more pervasive than the KGB guys who invented fake news. Did you read any of my synopsis of Manufacturing Consent or Bernay's Propaganda? Sure the Soviet Bear uses propaganda but so does the US. I could name hundreds of examples but the red scare of the 50's and the Un-American Activities Hearings or the false flags that led to the Vietnam escalation are a another. US citizens are told and taught so many lies about your country and it's history, I wouldn't even know where to start to give you examples.

It is natural to want to believe in the goodness of your country and to have patriotic feelings but to not understand your own history is to live in a kind of illusion. Very dangerous when your government is actively promoting war against another nation as foreign policy. You and others are perceiving my criticism as being anti-American when really I am trying to examine public and foreign policy decisions both past and present that have profound implications not just for Americans but for people around the world.

Agreed, my point exactly!

Perception of reality is heavily influenced by factors beyond control. For instance, the words "sky is blue" sound true, except for the inhabitants of Pingelap. Google it, it's a real eye opener regarding the distinction between truth and perception of reality. "Blue" is only a perception in the brain.

Yeah, but you are perceiving things I never said as well such as that I am against democracy or that I am anti-American. I think now more than ever it is important to study where democracy is going and if it is under threat and how we could improve it. I think the US and many western powers are moving closer and closer to what I would call oligarchy or plutocracy which is what I am trying to point out and criticize. If we cannot look at our own countries with open eyes and knowledge of how the political structure really works then as citizens we really are in trouble.

I don't think we have ever had what I would call a true democracy but the one we have now and all it's institutions such as free press and open government are under dire threat - even if you can't see it from inside the heart of Empire.

You don't understand I think how the national security apparatus is pressuring companies like Facebook and Google to restrict access to information and to spy on American citizens. Have you heard of the Net Neutrality Act? And this is just one example. Of course this forum would be possible but the type of information you have access to link on google can be restricted and certain types of searches suppressed - and it is happening right now as we speak.



Are you saying that American culture is limited to elections and government policies? That sounds more than a bit odd.[/QUOTE]

 

@EarthSky - this is too off topic to continue the discussion. I'd say it's worth opening a thread on the subject on Political Opinions and Beliefs or on Religion and Philosophy. Hijacking Durandal's thread isn't nice.

 

1983? Who's joking here?

1939: The Gleiwitz incident - German fake news
1943: The Katyn massacre - Soviet fake news
1964: The Gulf of Tonkin incident - Ameican fake news