Men's Rights

Discussion in 'Civil Rights' started by BodiSatva, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I'm just not sympathetic to this one.

    I don't mean to pile on here, but a few parts of this bother me:
    - It can seem unequal, but I don't think the man can just walk away.
    - I don't support abortion as a simple birth control method.
    - "So, get an abortion" is not an answer to "I'm pregnant." And, it isn't worthy of being rewarded by forgiving associated duties and costs.
    - And, it wasn't the action of one person.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not claim that women have gained full equality so I am not sure why you are giving the above examples of inequality. Your "law school" example is a joke. There are no barriers to women entering law school and it is a fact that women in college outnumber men.

    Regardless .. this has nothing to do with the fact that in "some" areas the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
     
  3. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    you think a painful abortion is just a simple birth control method,?
     
  4. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope. Not until it is proven that a single human cell (zygote) is a person.
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no child at conception. If it is her unilateral choice to carry a pregnancy to term, then the financial consequences are her responsibility. Consent to sex is not consent to carrying an unintended pregnancy to term.

    The inequality in law is that she has the choice to avoid the financial consequences that could result from an unintended pregnancy... the sperm donor does not.

    There is also the violation of the rule of law ... punishing one person for the actions of another.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is not about whether or not you support abortion. You are welcome to your opinion but this has nothing to do with equality under the law.

    If we did live in a world where abortion was illegal, then you would have a good argument. Obviously, if abortion is illegal the woman has no choice and the man knows she has no choice. Consent to sex is then consent to carrying an unintended pregnancy to term.

    The fact of the matter is that we do not live in that world.

    Sure if the woman can show some evidence that the man had been informed prior to sex that should an unintended pregnancy occur, she would carry it to term - then we have a legal argument that holds water.

    Then there is the inequality in relation to how custody and support is handled. That is a whole other story of injustice.

    The system as it is encourages women to bring children into a disfunctional environment. ... Ooopps ... forgot to take the pill and so on.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, consent is a full meal deal.

    Consent includes the fact that having sex means there is a possibility of pregnancy. Birth control methods have a failure rate. That's not a separate issue - it's part of it.

    And, this idea that you can skate by telling the woman to get an abortion is a total nonstarter. Once she's pregnant, it's her biology and her morality.

    That is also part of the full meal deal.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This guy seemed to think it is simple.

    I do not agree with that.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is legal. That means individuals have a legal choice.

    But, it does NOT mean that every woman sees abortion as the right choice or as an acceptable choice for themselves.

    Many people are pro-choice even if they or others would never decide to abort a pregnancy of their own.

    And, oral birth control, like other forms, has a failure rate. Plus, your "OOPS" implies that it is her responsibility when there are clear avenues for male participation in birth control. So, your implication that the woman was irresponsible is just more of you trying to skate by dumping on her.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No it is not. Millions of people have sex every day (every minute for that matter) without the intent of procreation. We do not live in the dark ages.

    Consent to sex is not consent to carrying an unintended pregnancy to term. Your assertion that it is, is abject nonsense.

    I explained why this is in the previous post and you just ignored this explanation.
    There is no "possibility" a baby if a woman has an abortion. Sex is then contingent on the assumption that if an accidental pregnancy happens a baby will not necessarily result.

    You can say ... well it is up to the man to find out prior to sex. Why ? What if the woman lies or changes her mind. The fact of the matter is that "intent" is not even taken into consideration ... which is another anathema in law. Conviction of a criminal act requires both "actus rea" and "mens rea". Actus rea means you had to have committed the crime .. "mens rea" means you had to have intended it.

    Clearly it is up to the woman to inform the man if her intentions are to carry an unintended pregnancy to term.

    Regardless, you have not addressed the legal issue of "equality"... that the woman has the right to force the man to be financially responsible for the consequences of her unilateral decision. The man has no such ability.

    If you want to take this further. If the woman has the ability to force a child (and the financial consequences that go with it) on a man, then should not a man have the same ability ?

    In other words .. if an unintended pregnancy happens, and the women does not want the child but the man does . .. should the man be able to force a child on her and the financial consequences that go with it ... just like she is able to do to him ?
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Get a grip. Are you suggesting that it is not "irresponsible" for a woman to intentionally get pregnant when she knows the man does not want to get her pregnant ? This is not only irresponsible, it is devious, unscrupulous and nasty.

    If the woman intends to carry an unintentional pregnancy to term, she should inform the dude prior to sex.

    Regardless .. none of this addresses the legal issue's brought up previously.

    see post 110.
     
  12. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    That's why men should take extra precautions if they don't trust the woman..good for stds as well but why are we talking about the rare exception of an awful woman. There are man who put a hole in the condom to get a woman pregnant. We know these are rare exceptions
     
  13. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    A woman knows if she has sex she can pregnant. A man knows if he has sex the woman can get pregnant. Are you implying that the male should make the decision and if there is a child as a result , he should have no responsibility.? His responsibility begins when he unzips his fly because he knows by law he will be responsible if she gets pregnant and decides to have HIS child
    . He cannot make that decision and he knows that before he has sex. We are talking about a third person here..the baby
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed ...however, it would be less rare without the incentive of someone paying your way should you carry a pregnancy to term.

    Regardless - this does not address the inherent inequality in law.
     
  15. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Couple things here. First, Why can't the man just walk away? Reverse the roles here. If a man intends to propagate, and the woman refuses, can the man force the woman to carry to term? If not, because as I believe you would agree, it's the woman's choice, it then is also the woman's choice to carry to term against the wishes of the man who more than likely then was not intending to propagate, and had no intention of having the child in the first place. And because he has not voice in a potential termination, he then has no financial obligation for the decision to carry to term because of the personal choice of the woman. It doesn't just "seem" unequal, it in fact is.

    Second, woman have abortions as birth control every day. Just because you don't support it doesn't make it illegal, or unused in our society today. Are you suggesting that there should be a different state of how abortions are allowed? Dangerous ground here for liberals.

    So, yes, get an abortion is an answer. It just isn't one you seem to like. So, make it fair. If a woman refused to abort on the demand of the father, the woman absolves said father of the future financial needs based on her decision. You don't get to have it both ways. Either you agree that this is mutual, or you don't. If it isn't, there is no expectation under the law that the unmet expectations of one partner should then legally tie them to the poor choices of the other.
     
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  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are not making an "argument". All you are doing is repeating your premise "he knew there was a possibility of pregnancy and that there was a possibility of the woman carrying that pregnancy to term therefor he is responsible for the financial consequences of the woman's unilateral actions".

    What you do not do is make a legal case for why your claim should be accepted as true or addressed my legal argument.

    Your claim has many flaws. If you get into a car as a passenger you know there is a possibility that the driver will have an accident. Should you be responsible for the financial consequences on this basis ? If you sell someone your gun or a knife you know there is a possibility that this weapon might be used in a crime .. are you then responsible ?

    There is a reason why "One person shall not be made responsible for the actions of another" is part of the rule of law.

    Basically you are saying "I am only for the rule of law for things I agree with".

    These laws were from a time when women had little power or economic opportunity and the mentality of people was puritan - sex outside of marriage was bad and the woman was a helpless victim. That the man took advantage by having sex with her or prehap's compelling her into sex or tricked her by the promise of a future. You continue to treat women as helpless victims.

    Times have changed, and so should the law. It is the woman's unilateral decision to carry an unintended pregnancy to term. Why should another human be made financially responsible for this unilateral decision ?

    Why is the woman to be viewed as a helpless victim who is not responsible for the consequences of her actions ? 1) having sex 2) deciding to carry an unintended pregnancy to term against the will of another ?
     
  17. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    I see this as the hypocrisy of the feminist movement. Women demand that men be financially supportive of their decisions when it's convenient. And only then. The selfish desire to carry a pregnancy to term against the wishes of her partner are just that selfish. Because they are selfish, there isn't a legal requirement of men to then acknowledge the victimhood of the self determining woman. Just as a man couldn't force a woman to carry the child to term on his behalf, a woman should not be allowed to attach financial burden to an unwilling father.

    Face it ladies, you have financial options that are available to you today that weren't even 60 years ago. The day's of tied to the kitchen are long gone, as are the legal need of unwilling men to finance your own selfish desires.
     
  18. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Paying her Way? You're assuming that the father has to pay so much...it's his baby! And since when does the man have to pay for her medical bills? What is the inequality ? Men should be able to abandon the child he created.?I hope you're not a dad
     
  19. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I don't support abandoning your own child....obviously you do.you seem to think a child is only hers. No, it's half his. So you think the man and woman should have equal say? If he wants the child, she should be forced to carry it to term? I will repeat.....he knows the risks, she knows the risks and biology is destiny. Yes, women have the final say and every man knows that when he has sex. No one sees the woman as the helpless victim....but I see their child that way. S/he is half hers and half his .
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course in many cases the financial obligation to the woman - Pays her way. I did not claim this happens in all cases.

    When the sperm donor gives sperm to the clinic it is "his baby" as well ... this does not incur financial obligation.

    The man did not create a child. He donated some sperm which accidentally initiated a creation process ... a process which was continued based on a unilateral decision by the woman .. a decision that the man had no part in.

    I am a dad .. what does that have to do with anything ?

    You have no valid argument so you are descending into the gutter of demonoization of the messenger.


    The inequality has been given to you numerous times and you have yet to respond. The woman has the ability to make the man financially responsible for the consequences of her unilateral decision to carry a pregnancy to term. The man has no such ability.

    Equality would be if the man had the same ability ... the ability to force the women to carry the pregnancy to term based on his unilateral decision and then force her assume financial responsibility for that decision.

    You are in hypocrisy if you do not agree that a man should not have this right yet think a woman should have this right.
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are just blathering an not responding to the arguments made. I do not care what you support and what you do not support. This is an issue of law.

    Then you create a big straw man ... I did not claim (nor do I believe) that the man and the woman should have equal say.

    I think we should maintain the rule of law 1) equality under the law 2) one person should not be made responsible for unilateral actions of another.

    The problem with your position is that you are in hypocrisy. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You completely failed to respond to what follows from your position as per the examples given.

    Repeating your premise over and over again "he should be responsible" is not an argument for anything .. what part of this do you not understand.

    If you think that people should be made responsible for the financial consequences of the unilateral actions of others ... then this has consequences ... some of which are given in the previous post - you completely ignored these consequences because you can not deal with what follows logically from your position. .

    If you do not believe in equality under the law then, this has consequences. Consequences which you completely ignore because you can not deal with what follows logically from your position.

    I am for equality ... you are not. You are only for equality in things you agree with. Everyone believes in that.

    You are for power and control . not equality.
     
  22. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    A sperm donor is legally free from support and free from knowing who he is donating sperm to in many cases . That's really a silly comparison. If a couple has sex they can draw up a legal document releasing him from any responsibity but you're making the exception the rule
    And you keep repeating the same thing....
    a man knows he will have to assume half of financial support for his child....you are right the man has no ability to decide whether to have the child or not.....men know that.! That is the risk they take. Only women can decide since it is only she who can make that decision...it's her body and no man can force her to have a baby, nor can man force her to abort, he knew that! . Who are you saying should have the final decision? You are saying men should be able to abandon a child he produced .
     
  23. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You think you are for equality but you're not. You want your decision to override the decision of the woman who has all the responsibility. You fail to mention the child. Because you don't want it, you don't want to support it. By the way please don't hold yourself morally superior and say i personally attacked you. I do not " blather"and I am not for power and control among other insults
    Please try to think of the innocent child whose father doesn't believe he should have to support because he didn't want him and mommy didn't want an abortion.
    I taught sex ed and I stressed to boys that they should be very careful because they could be responsible for a child for 18 years. The girls were given even more eye openers. I think men are smart enough to know that if they get a woman pregnant they have consequences.....and because of biology she has the final say. Who do you think should have the final say? You never answer that
    Also you talk about the law...the law makes the father of he third person half responsible, it is no longer about he and she...but about a baby
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Now you are accusing me of something I did not say.

    But, yes, there are things to talk about before sex.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    All true, at least to an extent.

    The woman MAY choose to have an abortion.

    People can be held accountable without having given consent to be accountable.
    Intent is really hard to prove. And, we aren't talking about a crime.
    ??
    We're talking about a fact of biology that is inherently not equal.
    I think this has been tried. If you are interested I bet you could find a court case where a man attempted to force a woman to carry a baby to term.
     

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