Muslim association buys Italian church to transform it into second mosque of Bergamo

In the Islamic world, there are a lot of churches, and synagogue's, that were converted to mosques after capture.
It's far more common than you would think.

 

No, the church was sold by a hospital in a auction a muslim association won.

I don't respect religions which are ready to kill people because they left this religion, drew a cartoon or drank the wrong water.

 

any statues, paintings, etc. would be destroyed.

 

Any statues and painting which the Christians/Hospital/whoever wanted to keep, they would presumably remove before the space changes hands. Any statues that are included in the space as specified by the auction would be the property of the new owner, and as such, they have the right to do with it whatever they want. They paid auction price for that right, so wouldn't they have that right?

If the Muslims don't want the depictions, I see no reason why the previous owned couldn't keep them and sell them on, but if they set up the auction in another way, that's also their right.

 

I would be a shame if they destroyed stain glass windows.
Hopefully they would remove them.

 

Are you suggesting that this contradicts anything meaningful I said?

You have the right to respect whatever you want, but this is a matter of what is legally defensible, not what your feelings about it are.

 

The "Dome of the rock", Islam's 3rd holiest place, was originally a Christian church.

Hagia Sophia is the former Greek Orthodox Christian patriarchal cathedral, later an Ottoman imperial mosque and now a museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

 

The Muslim association has put a price on how much they value the space. It seems anyone who estimated the value of keeping the stain glass windows have put a lower price on the value of the place and the right to decide what happens to it (if they didn't, the Muslims would not have won the auction).

That logic seems to me to hold, however, I reckon in practice it gets even easier. The Hospital set the auction rules, and if they cared about the glass windows, or even predicted that anyone else cared about the glass windows, they would have made rules which allowed for the windows to be removed if the new owners weren't interested in them. The windows are probably worth more on their own than combined with a space whose owner might not want them, so setting auction rules up like that would basically be free money for the hospital.

 

No.

Yes, but Italy isn't USA. We don't have the same relationship with places, history or nationality. First, there is the problem of the actual age of the church, of the building who should enter in consideration in this trade. You don't treat a 1000 years old building like a 30 years old one.
I won't hide that I'm rather hostile to the implementation of Islam in Italy, as it will bring only negative things to Italian people.

 

Italy: Populists block Muslim group’s bid to turn chapel into mosque

Oct 31, 2018 9:47 am By Christine Douglass-Williams

In an effort to protect Christianity in Italy:

Lombardy’s populist League-led local government has blocked plans to turn an old chapel into a mosque after an Islamic group outbid Christians at the auction of a church in Bergamo, northern Italy.

Italian Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Interior Matteo Salvini named Islam as “one of the greatest threats to Italy” and stated months ago:

Centuries of history are at risk of disappearing if Islamisation, which has been underestimated until now, finally wins.

 

Glad it wasn't a church that really had any cultural or real historical significance.

 

If they bought the property all statues, glass and other things affixed to it would be included and is now the Muslims property if they are smart they will sell off these but they can destroy them its their right now pending the final papers stealing off parts of it could void the sale.

 

Sure. They can't though.

I'm sure it will end well.

 

The problem is that it is a death sentence the people will carry out.
The hatred is part of the religion they are brainwashed into, and in many cases killing a non-believer is a passage to heaven.

 

Anyway, it's absolutly legal in most countries to forbid an ideology who could disturb public peace, for instance nazism.

 

I agree, and that effect is taken into account in that the other bidders in the auction probably would be willing to pay more for a 1000 year old building than a 30 year old one. Similarly, the auction likely had a reserve price (corresponding to the lowest price the seller is willing to accept) which should reflect that value. In addition, Italy (and if I don't misremember, the EU) have organs for protecting buildings of particular cultural importance.

At the end of the day, for whatever reason and with whatever nuances, the seller and buyer committed to a system by which the space was to change hands. I don't see anything in the above quote from you which changed when it became clear that a Muslim organisation had won the auction.

If someone was openly hostile to some group you belonged to, would you become more or less inclined to nurse hostility yourself?

 

Even if there is protection, it can be hard to protect something in the daily life. Islam has very strict rules on representations and idolatry.

That kind of things was protected, it don't prevented to be damaged, in that kind by an arrogant christian woman who had no specific rules about idolatry and representations.
Laws protections aren't laws and they aren't always applied, because it's good to have laws, but if you have no officers to apply it, it's useless.

Furthermore, I would like to notice that Italy knew thousand of years of islamic raids and that Rome was plundered by muslims back in that time, so we're on a sensitive historic matter.
One of most important Italian region, Sardinia has for symbol four muslim severed heads, the former Italian region Corsica get two ones, in remembrance of all those raids.

I don't says that I'm hostile to muslims, I'm hostile to their implementation in Italy and europe in general way. There is lot of groups hostile to my presence for historical reasons, so I don't go to those places.
I'm not an appreciation beggar, I don't care that some people appreciate me. I won't change because some people don't appreciate me. And carpets, people ready to accept everything get in the end only scorned. So yes, I think it's very positive for Italian people to show they're not proudless and they won't accept everything.

 

Sorry for taking forever to answer.

I don't have a problem with that line of thinking, and they should all have been taken into account when setting the selling price to begin with. If you want to decide what happens to an object, then buy it (or don't sell it). That's sort of what ownership means.

Naturally, the person who destroyed the painting wasn't allowed to do so, and I think that is recognised by all, I think that is a different matter to the Italian venue.

Well, it's issues like these which make matters stay historically sensitive. The difference between historically sensitive matters and matters which are relegated to history is people's unfounded pride. Vikings plundered Britain for ages, yet I am from Sweden and live in Britain and with no problems whatsoever. That wouldn't have been possible if people put too much stock in historical sensitivities.

 

I agree that it is *a* problem, but I'm not sure it is *the* problem. It is not an pure happenstance that the religion brainwashes people into killing others. They're not very likely to change their ideas if we firmly enforce the dichotomy that it's us vs. them.

 

Most people of arabic and african countries aren't willing to put aside their historically sensitiveness, and furthermore, british and sweden belong to the same civilization today, there is differences, but neglectfull between for instance british and pakistani culture.

 

"historical sensitivities" ? That's putting it very mildly.

 

I'm fine with this, as soon as Christians are free to build churches in Muslim lands. What are they afraid of?

 

Or anywhere else in Islam.

 

And even if the government said..OK... you can build churches,
The people would kill you.