my idea for universal medical care compromise

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by kazenatsu, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm on medicare. I've had private insurance and medicare. With private insurance I had to worry that should I ever need catastrophic care, would my insurer drop me?
    with medicare, that is no longer an issue.
     
    dagosa likes this.
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to watch your videos. If you can demonstrate that employee sponsored healthcare didn't cover pre-existing conditions before the ACA please do so.
     
  3. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You literally just posted the same two videos as you did in your last response to a comment of mine. If it's "not true," then you should be able to link some written evidence.

    Going forward, don't bother to post youtube videos to me as "proof." I've been fooled before by nutjob conspiracy theorists who ONLY had video proof of whatever idiotic thing they were trying to prove, and they never, ever proved anything.
     
  4. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are segments from 60 minutes, a show noted for integrity in reportage, which has won a total of 138 Emmy Awards, a record unsurpassed by any other primetime program on U.S. television, not to mention 20 Peabody awards, which fairs well among the longest running TV shows in history
    The segments contain hard evidence, and I find it amusing that you would kneejerk such a reaction without a cursory scrutiny of the source.
     
  5. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  6. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Less then half of the people are covered by employer based healthcare. Don’t move and don’t lose your job. You’re fked just like the millions who lost their job during the bush recession and the millions now during the Trump pandemic.
     
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    So you are telling me you have found it impossible to find written confirmation of your claim that employee sponsored healthcare in the pre-Obamacare era, didn't cover pre-existing conditions?
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Non responsive to the issue being discussed.
     
  10. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    The problem with government healthcare in the US is that its so splintered. We have Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Obamacare exchanges. So the best idea is to replace them with a government insurance option. For those formerly on Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA, they wouldn't want a downgrade on their coverage and want to see the same quality of coverage and care. But yes, a two-tiered system is one viable options.

    Another possiblity is to continue the Obamacare route. We keep expanding Medicare, Medicaid, and introduce the public option. We improve the healthcare subsidies for the middle class to make healthcare affordable, and maybe even some healthcare price controls. We keep the insurance mandate and increase the fine. This route is more expensive but then our system becomes more like Switzerland.

    One way of saving healthcare costs in either route is to reward people with healthy livestyles and lack smoking, drinkings, and obesity habits. We can do this by offering lower premiums or better coverage for people with healthy lifestyles. We can also partially fund our healthcare system by taxes on junk food, cigarettes, and alcohol. We can also focus more on preventative care and catching illnesses early. We can also provide more options for ethical voluntary euthania for end-of-life scenarios. Additionally, we should consider cleaning up all the regulations the healthcare system has to deal with.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unsubstantiated vacuous claims are not a merit worthy rebuttal.

    Please review the Carl Sagan Baloney Detection kit, you might learn some valuable lessons on effective debate technique, and next time, read the post I linked to, which obliterated your premise, entirely. If you disagreed with it's conclusions, the provide a substantive rebuttal, using logic, reason, and if you can find an outside credible source to back you up, please link to it. You have chosen the lazy person's technique, vacuous retort.

    Declaring "failure" in a vacuum, is projecting. And, if you haven't heard about 'projecting', that's when someone accuses others of the very thing he or she is guilty of. Please abstain from doing this in the future. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    two episodes from 60 minutes,, among the longest running documentary shows on Television, winning over 100 emmys, would do the trick, for any reasonable person.

    But, it took 400 milliseconds to find this:
    https://www.thebalance.com/obamacare-pre-existing-conditions-3306072
    This
    https://khn.org/news/pre-obamacare-preexisting-conditions-long-vexed-states-and-insurers/
    and this:
    https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/pre-existing-conditions/index.html "Insurance companies can no longer deny claims with preexisting conditions", so they would say this if they never did this in the past? I should thing Trump's HHS wouldn't have framed it that way.
     
  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I agree

    I did got to the post you linked to, and it was one of your previous posts in this thread, #54 to be exact, which I had already commented on. So how you think repeating the same thing that you already said is some sort of "gotcha" I've no idea.

    That's why I declared failure and moved on. You have determined that you will not provide evidence for your idiotic statements, and have now moved on to critiquing my replies. The point is, as always, is that I asked you to prove it, and you declined and decided to argue about the nature of argumentation.

    So yeah...failure.
     
  14. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Ah, you finally broke down, decided to try to provide evidence, and spectacularly failed on that! Let me explain why you failed. The insurance that employees get from their employers was, up until Obamacare, regulated by ERISA (since modified) that required that insurance covered pre-existing conditions. I guess you edited that out in your head and thought I was talking about individual policies.

    I hope you've learned something.
     
  15. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a fact of life that the odds of your being denied a claim on a catastrophic illness was great, prior to the ACA.

    Insurance companies and entire departments devoted to doing just that. The videos establish it, with TESTIMONIES from insurance company officials that do the denying, testimonies from many who were denied their claim, where insurance companies subpoened health records of those filling claims, scouring recrods for anything they forgot to mention on the application made years prior, and after accepting faithful payments for decades, in their hour of need, arbitrarily denying them the care they need.

    People died. .

    Contrary to your arbitrary self serving characterization of "crackpot" 60 minutes is unquestionably a reliable source which you REFUSE to consider, noting that it provides HARD EVIDENCE. Apparently you are not interested.

    Sorry, what's a law if it's not being enforced, eh? Not much.

    So don't lecture me about 'failure', please.

    Please educate yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Did you just "accidentally" skip over the fact that I was talking about company provided health insurance policies, or are you not very attentive to what you're reading? It's like you are trying to make up an argument and keep changing it's parameters because you can't admit you were wrong. Please point to me the minute in that 60 minutes video that they said company sponsored insurance doesn't cover pre-existing conditions.
     
  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, is that what you are nitpicking about, you saying it's 'employer sponsored insurers' that are not denying claims?

    It's the very first thing mentioned in the video, did you care to even look for a few seconds?



    Also, this, from HHS, org

    Please explain to me why HHS would declare such a thing if insurers did not deny claims?

    Moreover, it's an umbrella accusation, inclusive of private market and employer sponsored, as no distinction was made, which, given that's a government website, you'd think they'd have factcheckers on it before they publish it on the web.

    You've lost this one, Li'l Mike, check mate.

    Time for YOU to do the admitting.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  18. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how I have lost. I'm factually correct, and you aren't. That usually defines winning and losing here. Again, the fact that you regard "employer sponsored insurers" as "nitpicking" when that was the whole point I was making doesn't help your case. Work on reading comprehension and it might help you in future discussions not make such a fool of yourself.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've given you incontrovertible proof that insurers, not in every case, but in a substantial number such that two 60 minute segments were devoted to the topic of insurers denying claims based on pre-existing conditions. Since you seem hung up on the print aspect of that fact, I gave you links to articles confirming this fact. I even pointed to a government website that confirmed this fact.

    So, I"m not sure you imagine 'victory' is when people died because insurers denied claims, law or no law.

    There is NOTHING foolish about exposing what is wrong, and striving for what is right.

    That I overlooked your 'employer sponsored' "law for preexisting" is not an important point.

    My only mistake with you was not squashing your unimportant detail at the outset, for it started here:

    That is an unimportant fact, if, indeed, it is a fact, and it's unimportant for the following fact:

    people perished because insurers, both private market and employer sponsored, systematically denied claims with preexisting conditions, that is what is important.

    Your failure to grasp what should be important, that is what is foolish.

    Your condescension is vacuous and perfect example of projecting.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  20. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit amazed you are still going on about this since you clearly lost, and it shows in your reply.

    "insurers denying claims based on pre-existing conditions."

    "people died because insurers denied claims"

    "That I overlooked your 'employer sponsored' "law for preexisting" is not an important point."
    (pssst, it's the only point!)

    So most of your reply is denying the actual content of my post that you are pretending to refute. I was talking about employee health insurance, purchased from employers. I stated it, and you either missed it and chose to ignore it, and even when it's pointed out you say it's "not an important point.'

    Well that's the point I was making.

    But since you've picked up the gauntlet again, " people perished because insurers, both private market and employer sponsored, systematically denied claims with preexisting conditions"

    So are you saying that people were denied employer based health insurance because of pre-existing conditions? If so, please bring your proof because you've been an utter failure in that regard so far.
     
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, an idea to address that, the government could provide an alternative insurance option to cover people who are very difficult to cover. This alternative option would be substantially (intentionally) more expensive than (almost) any private insurance plan, so no one would choose it unless they really needed to.

    And yes, the cost of providing this insurance would probably have to be subsidized by the government, but the individuals covered by this insurance would still be paying something like 40% more than everyone else paying for private insurance.

    Again, I think this would properly address the problem, but I doubt either many Conservatives or many Progressives would be willing to support it, since it involves creative compromise.

    The government plan could also provide a less expensive supplementary insurance plan to cover preexisting conditions that private insurance companies refused to cover. However, again, the exact pricing of these plans is critical. It would have to be somewhat higher than what almost any normal private care plan would cost, but still not too much extremely higher. You don't want consumers rushing into the government plan, when private insurance could provide the plan to those special individuals for moderately more money.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  22. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ Many states did indeed have a plan that you described. It was reasonable in price.
    The ACA did away with those as they were deemed no longer needed.
     
  23. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    Health care is already universal. It is there for anyone who wants to buy it.
     
    StarFox likes this.
  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I'd go further, but its a start. Its better than what you have now. Go for it. Then people can push to expand it from there.
     
  25. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    It's not better than what I have!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020

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