New Marine Corps squad configuration, M27 automatic rifle revealed...

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by US Conservative, May 16, 2018.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    When you think your balls are larger than they really are, walking fire is employed. It's a sure way to be awarded the Silver Star.

    A Marine rifle squad will leap frog. Two fire teams advancing towards the objective . While one fire team advances the other fire team lays down suppresive fire. The first fire team advances so many yards then goes into the prone position laying down suppresive fire so the other fire team can advance and so on and so on.The third fire team maneuvers out of sight to attack the enemy position on it flank.



    Marching fire, also known as walking fire, is a military tactic; a form of suppressive fire used during an infantry assault or combined arms assault. Advancing units fire their weapons without stopping to aim, in an attempt to pin down enemy defenders. Marching fire usually ends with an infantry charge to engage the enemy in close combat. The tactic requires ample ammunition and rapid-fire weapons. It differs from fire and movement in that the attacking force advances in unison rather than leapfrogging forward in alternating groups.



    The BAR remained in U.S. service into the 1970's.

    During the Tet Offensive of 68 both Army and Marines called for BAR's and air cooled .30 cal Browning machine guns. Most were acquired from ARVAN but the Marines got them from the ship armories that were off shore.

    During Tet during the battle of Hue the Marines broke out the Thompson sub machine gun that were kept in armories but rarely issued except during Tet.

    During the battle of Hue the weapons of choice was the ONTOS the Thompson sub machine gun and the 12 ga. shotgun for clearing buildings.

    Until the early 70's all Marine ship detachments armories had Thompson sub machine guns, BAR's and some times water cooled Browning machine guns.

    The National Guard were still issued the BAR well into the 1970's.

    When the sh!t hits the fan, those obsolete WW ll weapons don't seem so obsolete.
     
  2. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Still not a good reason against the IAR. IAR is a good rifle from what I heard.
     
  3. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    What I like about the M-27 is that it uses a short stroke piston like the M-1 Garand and M-14 uses.

    What I don't like about the M-27 is that the bi-pod makes it front heavy, not a well balanced rifle and that it is still chambered for a varmint cartridge like the M-16.

    One thing they got right and the Marine Corps demanded it, the barrel length was extended so a bayonet could be attached to the barrel.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  4. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The bipod can be detatched for regular infantry and used for automatic riflemen and designated marksmen.

    5.56x45 is a good round. We used since for almost 60 years, gotta be doing something.
     
  5. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    It can but unlikely it will unless they bring back the automatic rifleman to each fire team.

    It's a high power varmint cartridge. The 5.56X45 mm (Remington .223) is based upon the Remington .222 that was flat shooting and designed to shoot little critters like ground hogs squirrels and other varmints.

    I suppose commies could be called varmints.
     
  6. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    No problem. The bipod can used for some scenarios but removed in others.


    And can kill a human easily....

    I wouldn't want to hit by a 5.56. You see a bullet flying at those speeds will fragment violently in a human body, tearing organs and causing massive blood loss and shock.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  7. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Either you served back when I did when they took away my M-14 and forced me to take the M-16A1 or your old schooled.

    The M-16 A1 and Colt AR-15's and Ruger Mini-14's manufactured before 1984 that were able to fire that really nasty 5.56X45mm (Remington .223) 55gr M-193 round that was so nasty when you hit Charley with it that the PC left declared the cartridge to be inhumane and politically incorrect.

    Because the M-16 A2 and AR's and the Ruger Mini-14's manufactured after 1983 have an extra land and groove rifling with a 1:7" twist unlike the M-16 A1 and older Colt AR-15's and Ruger Mini 14's that have a 1:12" twist, if you use the politically incorrect 55 gr M-193 ammunition in the M-16 A2 or AR's and Ruger Mini-14 made after 1983 the bullet copper jacket is likely to separate from the bullet lead core in mid air.It's just spinning so freaking fast while going down range.


    If you own a pre 84 Colt AR-15 or Ruger Mini-14 you can still use politically incorrect ammunition. Liberals are likely to call you an "animal."
     
  8. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The primary purpose of the M855 was to give longer range performance and better penetration than the M-193. It is still a good round, they had problems firing from a 14.5 inch M4 Carbine since it didn't have the velocity to fragment past 150 meters, however they introduced the M855A1 to solve a lot of the issues. Special Operations use 77 Grainers which fragment even more than the M-193.

    Getting shot with an M4 is worse than getting shot AKM. The M855/SS109 still fragments like a animal creating a large perm cavity.
    [​IMG]
    I don't see any good reason to stop using the 5.56
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Marines Working with the Army on 5.56mm Rifle Round Replacement

    11 Apr 2018

    A senior Marine Corps official confirmed today that the service is lockstep with the Army's effort to search for a rifle round more potent than the current 5.56mm round.

    For months, senior Army officials have been telling Congress that the current 5.56mm Enhanced Performance Round is not potent enough to penetrate enemy body armor plates similar to U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.


    As a solution, the Army is experimenting with a plan to replace its M249squad automatic weapon and M4 carbine with futuristic weapons that fire a 6.5mm case-telescoped round or something that falls between a 5.56mm and a 7.62mm round.

    The Marine Corps, which recently decided to buy more M27 5.56mm Infantry Automatic Rifles, has not publically echoed the Army's concern with 5.56mm until now.

    "We are working the Army; we have looked at the 6.5mm Creedmoor with the Army and [Special Operations Command]," Brig. Gen. Joseph Shrader, commander of Marine Corps Systems Command, told Military.com at the annual Sea-Air-Space exposition Wednesday.

    "We are lockstep with them looking at a new round."

    Shrader, however, said he did not know if the effort would mean a new infantry weapon for the Marine Corps.

    Lt. Gen. John Murray, deputy chief of staff for Army G8, told Congress in February that the Army already has a science and technology demonstration weapon, made by Textron Systems.

    The working 6.5mm prototype has evolved out of Textron's light and medium machine guns that fire 5.56mm and 7.62mm case-telescoped ammunition developed under the Lightweight Small Arms Technology program.

    Over the last decade, the Army has invested millions in the development of the program, which has now been rebranded to Textron's Case-Telescoped Weapons and Ammunition.

    While the Textron weapon is "too heavy," Murray said the Army has opened the effort up to industry to come in and develop new prototypes for testing.

    The Army had planned on fielding a the new Next Generation Squad Weapon by 2025 or 2026, but the service has now accelerated the effort to have some kind of initial capability by 2022 or 2023 at the latest, Army officials say.
    https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/04/11/marines-working-army-556mm-rifle-round-replacement.html
     
  10. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Walking fire is a tactic that hasn’t been used in actual combat since WWI. It was as obsolete as the BAR’s lack of a pistol grip by the time WW2 started.
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It was used during the Vietnam War and the British army used it in Afghanistan, one of the last bayonet attacks and not the last no matter what Barack Obama said about bayonets being obsolete.

    Re: Pistol grips.

    The only reason why Gene Stoner put a pistol grip on the AR-10, AR-15/M-16 was so 100% of recoil when firing a round from the rifle would be directed directly back into the shoulder reducing muzzle climb.

    The BAR was designed to be fired from the hip just as the original Thompson sub machine gun. The original Thompson's didn't even have a butt stock and that's why it has a pistol grip.

    Go to your closet and pull out your rifle that doesn't have a pistol grip and pull out your AR that has a pistol grip. Get into the position with each rifle as if your going to fire from the hip. You quickly notice that the rifle with the pistol grip that your wrist isn't in a natural position.It also limits maneuverability of the rifle and what positions you can quickly move the rifle into.
     
  12. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Source for your claim of people walking standing upright into combat, not short rushes with intermittent dives for cover, in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    So the BAR was only useful for a tactic that was already obsolete by the time it was invented.

    And yes, bayonets are obsolete.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  13. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The United States hasn't fought a real war in over 45 years.
    The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were low intensity wars with very low casualties. American casualty rates during the Iraq war was about the same as they were during the Philippine Insurrection.

    I would have to hit the history books to show where walking fire was used. It was used during one of the major battles during the Guadalcanal campaign when U.S. Marines actually drove the Japs just not on to the beach but into the water.
    (By August 10th 1942 U.S. Marines no longer took prisoners during combat except maybe during the mopping up phase after the battle has been won. If a Jap waved a white flag and wanted to surrender ...you shot him. "Kill of be killed" was the rule in the war in the Pacific.)

    The battle of Saipan waking fire was used. Gen. Holland Smith the only Marine general to command an army fired an U.S. Army division Maj General on the battlefield during the Saipan campaign for moving to slow and not being aggressive enough. (Boy, did the sh!t hit the fan on that one.)

    Gen. Schwarzkopf did the same thing during the first Gulf war (Desert Storm) when an Army Brigade commander was being to cautious and not being aggressive enough and advancing to slow while at the same time ordering U.S. Marines to slow down, that they were advancing to fast.

    FYI:
    Gen. Holland Smith commanded an army in the Pacific during WW ll consisting of U.S. Marine amphibious corps and a U.S. Army corps.
    Most of us know what a company, battalion, regiment, brigade and a division is.
    A division is commanded by a two star Maj. General.
    Two or three divisions = a corps commanded by a three star Lt. Gen.
    Two or three corps = an army commanded by a four star general.
    USMC also have a "Force" as in a Marine Amphibious Force consisting of 1 X Mar. Div. and 1 X Mar. Air Wing.

    If you're in the prone position or taking cover behind a rock or tree you aren't advancing. You have to keep advancing not giving the enemy time to fallback and regrouping.

    Same doctrine the Soviets used during WW ll never allowing the Germans to fall back and regrouping.


    (2) Assault Fire.
    Successful advance by fire and maneuver leads naturally to an assault of the target area or objective. Assault fire is that fire delivered by a unit during its assault on a hostile position.
    (a) Riflemen and Assistant Automatic Riflemen. Both fire well directed shots from the pointing position.
    They should fire the weapon using three-round bursts or they should pull the trigger each time the left foot strikes the ground. They fire at known or suspected enemy locations on the portion of the objective that corresponds with their position in the assault formation.
    POINTING Aiming. UNDERARM Assault Fire Positions. (b) Automatic Riflemen. The automatic riflemen fire in three- to five round bursts from the underarm firing position. They cover the entire squad objective. Priority of fire is given to known or suspected enemy automatic weapons.
    Fire Team Leader. The fire team leader's primary concern during the assault is the control of his fire team. If he is required to fire his rifle, he fires well-directed rifle fire using the pointing technique. Once a hardened or area target presents itself, the fire team leader will commence to fire the grenade launcher using the pointing technique until the target is destroyed or neutralized, or until he cannot place effective fire on the target without endangering friendly troops.

    (1) When the squad reaches the assault position the squad leader, fire team leaders, and squad members must quickly make final preparations for the assault. Unit leaders issue last minute instructions to their men. Squad members armed with the M-16, to include the fire team leader/grenadier, will insert a full magazine. Riflemen, assistant automatic riflemen, and squad leaders should fix bayonets; fire team leaders should load the M-203 with the type of ammunition directed by the squad leader. Automatic riflemen ensure that their weapons contain sufficient ammunition for the assault. If the 200-round ammunition box is being used, a quick determination as to the amount of ammunition remaining in the box must be made. If there is less than thirty rounds in the box, reload the weapon with a new box or a magazine. The important thing is not to run out of ammunition during the assault. All members of the squad ensure that hand grenades are within easy reach so they can be used during the upcoming assault.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
    US Conservative likes this.
  14. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I notice you aren't actually giving any links, you are just making claims. I guarantee you no "walking fire" has been used in combat since 1917 or so. If you are on a modern battlefield where everyone has automatic rifles and machineguns, standing up and walking towards you enemy means you get stupidly dead real quick.
     
  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Because they are in after action reports and history books that aren't on the internet.

    Not everything is on the internet and likely never will be.

    Google thought they were going to be able to put access to every book ever published on the internet, remember ? They gave up and also found out they were infringing on copywriter laws.

    Have you ever visited the national archives or one of the federal national archives depository's located around the country ?

    If you ever do it's more than likely you'll do what I did...got a hotel room close by and returned day after day.
    99% of what you see isn't on the internet.
     
  16. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Marching fire is only really good if you have someone pinning the enemy down from non-marching position and the enemy artillery neutralized. It is a good tactic in rare cases, but in most cases leapfrogging is better.

    Mainly due to armor not lethality.
     
  17. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male



    That is always the norm but there will be times when you will not have fire support.

    Like I said, walking fire was used in Vietnam especially in the jungles or heavily wooded areas.
    Was used in the jungles of Southwestern Pacific during WW ll.

    I think some are confused to what "walking fire" is. It's also referred to as "marching fire." Both are the same thing.

    Wiki, not really being a credible source and should only be used as a starting point for further research and always go to the "Talk Page." has a page on "walking fire"/"marching fire."
    note: (The Wiki Talk Page is blank on this topic, I suppose nobody is challenging the topic's accuracy ? )

    Three excerpts:

     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
    US Conservative likes this.
  18. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Without support, walking fire is suicide.
     
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Some times you don't have an option.
     
    US Conservative likes this.
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Then you don’t use walking fire, and you instead use non-suicidal standard infantry suppression-rush tactics.
     
  21. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Marching fire is just one of the tactics that can be used. Marching fire is well suited in a jungle or wooded environment.

    Marching fire isn't the assault, it's leading up to the assault phase.


    After the Battle of Hue when the 5th Marines basically destroyed an entire NVA division, that it no longer existed and was completely removed from North Vietnam's Order of Battle, the debriefings began and after actions reports had to be written, Lessons Learned had to be come up with and distributed.

    One of the questions that many grunts were asked when being debriefed, since you now have urban warfare experience under your belt would you rather be fighting in the jungle or in a city ?

    Though question, the common response was that in the jungle there was a lot of running, long sprints, you always had to keep moving and were never able to stop and catch your breath.

    In urban warfare the sprints were shorter usually a 100 feet or less and you could stop behind a building or wall and catch your breath.

    But clearing buildings really sucks.



     
  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Marching fire isn’t suited to any situation where the enemy has automatic weapons and can shoot back, IE all modern warfare after 1914 or so.
     
  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Obvious you're not a fan of George S. Patton or Donald J. Trump.

    http://www.pattonhq.com/pdffiles/vintagetext.pdf
     
  24. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    63,175
    Likes Received:
    4,962
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I prefer my generals and presidents without a massive ego and glory seeking behavior that get men killed, for instance Eisenhower.
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    38,029
    Likes Received:
    16,040
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Like Commander in Chief Barrack Hussein Obama and his politically correct rules of engagement that favored the enemy that led to American troops bleed and dying in the name of liberal political correctness ?

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/5/increase-in-battlefield-deaths-linked-to-new-rules/


    Under Obama
    [​IMG]

    An informal list of the restrictive rules under Barack Hussein Obama from interviews with U.S. forces. Among them:
    • NO NIGHT OR SURPRISE SEARCHES.
    • VILLAGERS HAVE TO BE WARNED PRIOR TO SEARCHES.
    • ANA OR ANP MUST ACCOMPANY U.S. UNITS ON SEARCHES.
    • U.S. SOLDIERS MAY NOT FIRE AT THE ENEMY UNLESS THE ENEMY IS PREPARING TO FIRE FIRST.
    • U.S. FORCES CANNOT ENGAGE THE ENEMY IF CIVILIANS ARE PRESENT.
    • ONLY WOMEN CAN SEARCH WOMEN.
    • TROOPS CAN FIRE AT AN INSURGENT IF THEY CATCH HIM PLACING AN IED BUT NOT IF INSURGENTS ARE WALKING AWAY FROM AN AREA WHERE EXPLOSIVES HAVE BEEN LAID.

    [​IMG]




    Under Trump
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    https://citizensfortrump.com/2017/1...craps-obamas-restrictive-rules-of-engagement/
     
    US Conservative likes this.

Share This Page