OMG You become what you Worship!

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes we stumble across things purely by accident that are amazing explanations of reality.

    It never occurred to me that 'by definition' everyone has a G/god, even agnostic me.

    Now as an agnostic (except for a brief moment of weakness), I rarely quote anything biblical, but for some strange reason it appears psychology hasnt caught up to valid observations from over 2000 years ago!


    The surrounding nations were mocking Israel because they seemed to worship an invisible God, in contrast to their gods, who were visible and on display in their temples.

    “Those who make [idols] will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.” This is a great reminder to us. If you worship a dead block of wood or stone, you will become like what you worship, dead and lifeless.
    Psalm 114,115 is a sobering reminder that we become like what we worship. https://biblereasons.com/idolatry/

    Money worship is a type of money disorder. ... Individuals with this disorder are obsessed with the idea that obtaining more money is necessary to make progress in life and, at the same time, convinced that they will never have enough money to fulfil their needs or desires.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_worship

    The destruction of idols and images as icons of veneration is called iconoclasm,[10] and this has long been accompanied with violence between religious groups that forbid idol worship and those who have accepted icons, images and statues for veneration and / or worship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

    Definition. The term "selfism" was used by Paul Vitz in his 1977 book Psychology as Religion: The Cult of Self-Worship. Vitz deconstructs the selfist movement(s), and claims that all of modern-day liberalism and leftism are essentially selfist at their core.

    So when its all said and done if you are a materialist and place your belief and faith in materialism you worship the same god as atheists and secularists.

    Likewise what ever you place your belief and faith in is what you worship.

    Looks like everyone has a G/god. I suppose that would not apply if someone is brain dead and has no beliefs therefore no faith in what they believe as its logically impossible to have faith in a belief you dont have!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Just for reference, could you point us to this definition please? I don't doubt that there is one, I just don't want to make assumptions of what you're referring to. Is this link good?

    So, if you "have" a G/god, in what sense are you an agnostic?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    by definition
    because of the nature of someone or something:
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/by-definition

    by definition
    if something has a particular quality by definition, it must have that quality because all things of that type have it.
    https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/by-definition

    by definition
    If you say that something has a particular quality by definition, you mean that it has this quality simply because of what it is.
    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/by-definition


    Money is the most popular and well known 'false god'.

    Anything real or imagined can be someones god. What do you think about all day? Money? What do you desire every day? Money? What do you strive for every day? Money? What is important to you? Money? What do you covet? Money? What do you believe will achieve the most happiness? Money? What is your main focus? Money? What do you belief in? Money?

    What do you worship? Money!

    I suppose by definition I would have to admit to the worship of a false god.

    Are atheists and agnostics real, or are they both unsupportable premises in which reality as known thousands of years have shown these premises to be the results of worshiping false gods, or at a minimum some identifiable substandard god? Like money? Which is what a false god is afaik.

    This should raise a few eyebrows in the deity based religions shouldnt it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I was thinking more the definition of G/god, as in my example.

    In what sense is it "false"?

    What do you mean by "deity based religions"? Are deities not by definition gods?
     
  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    If you are asking what my understanding of a false G/god is, its a god that will not achieve the expected results, in that sense its false. Secularism is not a deity based based religion. Money is not a deity based religion. If you have a better version of the above great. There may be other definitions, pick your poison.

    However based upon those concepts the point made in the OP is the ancients had this all figured out, and no one is exempt from worshiping some sort of G/god.

    You can use any definition you want for G/god, and likewise you can use any definition you want for a false G/god.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  6. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    If you want to expand the definition of "God" to just basically mean whatever your core values are, then fine, but this would disprove your previous claim: "So when its all said and done if you are a materialist and place your belief and faith in materialism you worship the same god as atheists and secularists."

    Is your god your values or is it your metaphysics? I've known atheists with wildly different core values, wildly different things they think about all day, wildly different things they desire/strive for, wildly different things they consider important, wildly different sources of happiness, wildly different focuses.
     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Morals regardless of the source derived are values
    Metaphysics is not values
    Sure

    A false god is, in some monotheistic religious denominations, the deities of pagan religions – as well as other competing entities or objects to which particular importance is attributed.

    In Abrahamic doctrines, a false god is a deity or object of worship that is regarded as either illegitimate or non-functioning in its professed authority or capability, and this characterization is further used as a definition of "idol".

    An alternative usage of the term "false god" refers to anything that is considered to assume a place of undue importance in one's life; this usage is reflected in the viewpoint of some that "whatever we try to derive our core sense of meaning and worth is our god".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_god
    I dont 'want' it I have to deal with it just like you, though I expect unlike you I do not have a problem with it.

    How so?
     
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    worship
    extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem;
    ~worship of the dollar


    Examples of worship in a Sentence
    ~Many ancient cultures worshipped the sun and moon.

    Synonyms for worship
    adulation, deification, hero worship, idolatry, idolization, worshipping (also worshiping)
    adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, venerate
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

    Yep sounds like core beliefs to me
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe in an infinitely energetic and eternally ancient Intelligence who learns and evolves over infinite time in the past and created an Adam and Eve prototype roughly six or seven thousand years ago linear time...........( but Edgar Cayce said that the Adam and Eve of the Bible were actually the fifth Adam and Eve pair).

    I consider that the infinitely ancient Intelligence only got into Psychology and Theology after inventing other intelligences (and perhaps Intelligences)?!

    www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

    http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/index.html
     
  10. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, thats your belief, how would you say those beliefs melded into your life?
     
  11. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    That's because you making semantic arguments that conflate figurative usage of the word "worship" with literal usage. But if you were correct, you still jumped to the conclusion that all materialists, atheists, and secularlists have the SAME sole core value. Anyone who has met or spoken with atheists knows differently. Comte and Rand were both atheists and had radically opposed values; there are atheists of both their stripes today, as well as atheists of neither stripe. There are, likewise, nihilistic atheist. There are atheists who adore money and there are atheists who hate even thinking about money. There are atheists who revere nature and atheists who hold nothing but contempt for it. There are atheists who glorify humanity and atheists who hate humanity or see it as something to be overcome. There are atheists who revere the pursuit of knowledge and atheists who believe knowledge to be impossible. There are atheists who are materialists and atheists who reject materialism. There are atheists who are secularists and atheists who would prefer state-mandated atheism.

    Likewise, if we were to take your argument seriously and say that they all believe in false gods just because some religions say that is what they do, then I'd likewise have to assume that the fact that you are a Muslim means that you are a satanist. That is, after all, what the religion I grew up in had to say about Islam. I think that's hogwash, but if we accepted your whole "Well of a religious tradition says it, then it must be true" argument, then that's what I'd have to assume.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  12. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    While that's not a wholly unreasonable definition, it seems a bit shaky to me. If the Christian God existed, and he created the universe and man and all that, but he doesn't "achieve the expected results" (perhaps he "works in mysterious ways", or it is unclear what to expect from him), does that make him a false God?

    It seems to me that if you can widen the understanding of "God" to include anything that gets worshipped (in the broader sense), or treated with reverence, then you can do the same to the word "deity". For instance, the example "a society in which money is the only deity" (source).

    I think I'm with yardmeat on this one. It seems to me that atheism is most commonly defined with a particular definition of God in mind, the supernatural kind. You can use another definition of "atheism" or "God" or "worship" if you want to, and by doing so, you may have constructed an unsupportable premise, but it is not the same premise as the one most commonly discussed by atheists (and those who argue against them).
     
  13. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Everybody believes something. That is their 'religion', or philosophy of life, worldview, God, or whatever you want to call it. It is the false and phony narrative, from progressive Indoctrination that says,

    'Atheism is science! Christianity is religion!'
     
  14. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    figurative? how so? citation?
    I am, 'sole' who said sole? not me.
    I was one before becoming an agnostic, didnt stop me from worshiping a god according to the old ways.
    How does that prevent them from worshiping a false god?
    Sure just there are many different flavors of gods, you have failed to make a disconnection.
    Sure if you think the muslim G/god is satan then that is what you would have to say.
     
  15. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Its what it is, I cant take credit for a definition thats been around since Christs day. Well if you know what results God expected Id be interested to hear them? I dont see this mystery you talk about? I have never een anyones religion where they didnt wholeheartedly believe they knew what to expect from their G/god(s). That is a core element and nature of religion.

    I didnt widen anything. It is what it always has been. if you want a good example, you may want to look at the examples I provided in post 7 and 8. Yours is not a good example.

    Sure each of which would have associated G/god(s)
    It seems very weird to hear someone tell me 'another' definition when I use a definition that been around since Christs day, or maybe it makes more sense to say another definition than the one you want to use?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Id buy the atheist religion is based in the natural (science is one of of many flavors) and deity based religions are based in the supernatural (Christianity is one of of many flavors).
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  17. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Sure, but G/god, even if he exists, might fail to fulfil the expectations, thereby fulfilling your definition of a false god.

    What's wrong with it? It seems to me, it is no worse an example than your pick of definition for "god".

    I don't understand this. Each of what?

    Why is that weird? Does definitions being old mean something? Are you obliged to use the fruit definition of orange because it is older, or are you actually allowed to pick whichever one is useful (assuming that you're clear about it, of course)?
     
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    again its not 'my' definition
    I disagree, whats wrong with the one given?
    each choice
    clear about what? you are the one suggesting the use of some alternative definition, for what reason I cant imagine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Hmm.... looks like all the strawmen went up in flames, how about that!
     
  20. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    You literally just said in another thread that you don't have a deity. But you are continuing with a thread saying that everyone has a deity. Which is it? And how do you resolve the fact that this would also mean an infinite regression of deities? Each deity would, at least in theory, value something . . . which according to you would mean that each deity has a deity . . .
     
  21. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    So what other religions are there besides "atheist religion" and "deity based religions"?
     
  22. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Ok, then let's rework it:
    Sure, but G/god, even if he exists, might fail to fulfil the expectations, thereby fulfilling that definition of a false god.

    I didn't say there was anything wrong with that one. I'm asking what you think was wrong with my example. Here it is again:

    "a society in which money is the only deity" (source).

    I wasn't talking about any choices. It seems to me that atheism is most commonly defined with a particular definition of God in mind, the supernatural kind. You can talk about some other definition, but you won't be addressing atheism in its modern form.

    Clear about which definition you're using. When I try to talk about oranges, I don't pick the oldest definition or the one that's first in the dictionary, I pick the one that corresponds to the thing I'm trying to talk about. If there is anything unclear about which one I picked, I clarify.
     
  23. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    lets not
    sure if your G/god is an idol of some sort as explained in the op
    money is an idol, I have no problem with your claiming an idol is a definition for false god
    I know, I was, that was the point after all.
    It seems to me the subject matter is not atheism, its what you worship is your god(s).
    There are plenty of threads if you want to talk about atheism
    Doesnt do much good when you ignore definitions given.
    You are the one trying to slip in other definitions, not me. Thye definition I gave was perfectly clear and perfectly applicable today as it was the day it was coined.
    Doesnt do you much good when the one you pick skews the topic into another universe.
     
  24. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    as you already know there are an infinite number of deity based religions and an infinite number of atheist based religions and likewise an infinite number of religions that fly under agnostic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, also if G/god is the almighty creator of the universe, source of all morality and all that. Your definition was a false god is one that does not fulfil expectations, so if the Christian God failed to fulfil expectations (perhaps because we're bad at figuring out what to expect from God) he'd fulfil your definition of a false god.

    You're missing the point here. Your point in this thread seems to derive from the idea that you can consider the word "god" to refer to "something worshipped" rather than an explicitly supernatural force. However, you seem to not have done the same with the word "deity", which (as I have shown) can also be used to refer to "something worshipped".

    Fundamentally, I don't actually have a problem with that, I'm just trying to clarify what it is you're trying to say.

    You're right, I'm not specifically discussing atheism here, I just use it (as you did) as examples of the arguments.

    I don't think I've rejected any of your definitions, I'm just trying to make sense of what you've written. For instance, it seems to me you use two different definitions of atheism. You write

    So when its all said and done if you are a materialist and place your belief and faith in materialism you worship the same god as atheists and secularists. (source)​

    and later

    Are atheists and agnostics real, or are they both unsupportable premises in which reality [...] have shown these premises to be the results of worshiping false gods (source)​

    In the former, you seem to be talking about people who reject supernatural gods (given that you seem to consider them to worship non-supernatural gods) but in the latter, you seem to suggest atheism as rejecting false gods like money as well (which, given that you argue that everyone "worships" something, means that such atheists couldn't be "real"). I think the above has been unclear (it is possible that I have misinterpreted either of the above uses of the word, and if so, that's also likely due to it being unclear).
     

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