Out: Brexit. In: Polexit

I had wondered what the immigration problem would be, but the article seems to just be referring to Europeans, especially from neighboring countries, who have grown accustomed to freely crossing borders.

<SNIP>

Poland shares borders with Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania. Currently, Europeans are allowed to freely cross all of those boundaries, or at least they would be if there weren’t pandemic travel restrictions in place. And they expect to return to full travel access soon. But if Poland left the EU, all of those borders would have to be reestablished with security put in place. Immigration issues would certainly arise. The list of complications goes on.

<End Snip>

Despite saying there is a longer list of "complications," I didn't see any others mentioned, other than possibly encouraging other countries to leave. At first I didn't know why, if Poland took a powder, any other nations would be more inclined to follow suit. Nor, why it should be so destabilizing to go from 27 members, to 26.

But another part of the article presents another mirror to our own, American circumstances; that is, it portrays a potential political divide, in the EU, between liberal and conservative countries (or should I say, between, "Red," and, "Blue," ones?). So the apprehension is that more conservative counties, particularly in Eastern Europe, might leave, in order to start their own union, with Poland.

<SNIP>

The country’s conservative government frequently takes issue with the liberal rulings coming out of the EU and tensions seem to be rising. The dispute with the EU has led multiple party leaders in Poland to suggest that leaving might be an option. And the language they’ve chosen to use isn’t exactly mild. Some of them have recently compared the EU to the Soviet Union and even the Nazis...

But the reality is that Poland’s conservative politics and policies really aren’t a great match for the socialist environment that has steadily grown in Brussels. The same can be said about the governments of Hungary and Romania to different degrees, along with most of the former Eastern Bloc nations. Far more so than with what we saw happening with the UK, if Poland ever did decide to leave, I can easily imagine some of those like-minded nations beginning to consider a similar move and setting up their own union once again.

 

That's like 150+ years after the fact.

And yet you just claimed that cultural identity was being divided which is an admission that the US is less culturally conservative than Euro-States.

That is magnificent but you are describing social conservatism/liberals, which is not the same thing as cultural conservatism/liberalism..

How many of German ancestry in the US still wear lederhosen every day?

In fact, are there any Americans who wear any traditional garb ever?

Cultural conservatism is about maintaining traditions, not social views.

 

Um, no, there's an EU parliament that makes laws for EU member-States and member-States must comply with those laws which go way beyond the scope of an economic union.

I'm Poland and I want to negotiate a separate FNC with Russia or Japan or Canada or Australia or Vietnam and I can't unless the EU and all member-States are party to the Agreement and give their approval and blessing.

 

It was never meant to be a nation, but an economic union, and naturally they have their rules and regulation which the members states are expected to respect.

 

That was propaganda and a cover up. Germany sacrificed Greece to bail out the banks. Had Greece declared bankruptcy, it would have been out of debt in 2 years like Iceland. Instead it had to keep borrowing to pay off the interest rates. Germany lost nothing financially, and Greece everything.

Right from the start the Greeks realized that the debt was not sustainable, so Washington (no doubt Soros) invited the medias to a seminar in Washington to learn how to convince the Greek people that the debt was sustainable.

When the Greek economic minister told Brussels that 'austerity' was hindering economic growth, the head in Brussels laughed, and said; "we know that". In other words they were doing it to keep Greece in debt.

So why? Probably to take over Greece's assets in the Mediterranean. Well they're going to have to fight Turkey to get them. They're now claiming the Greek waters as their own Blue Homeland.

And talking about Turkey, Erdogan has just expelled 10 ambassadors including the American one.




And 'round and 'round we go,
and where we stop nobody knows.

 

And here's the latest - which I find funny because Poland has been armed to the hilt as a border state with Russia.

If EU ‘starts WW3’ against Poland by withholding promised funding, Warsaw will defend itself with ‘any weapons available’ – PM

 

Wrong.

Your English language skills are atrocious.

[T]o assert its identity on the international scene, in particular through the implementation of a common foreign and security policy including the eventual framing of a common defence policy, which might in time lead to a common defence;

That's from the Treaty of Maastricht which you failed to read before making bizarre claims.

The EU started as a customs union, but it is now a political union.

To suggest that the EU is not a political union is to call the EU a liar.

Why don't you read this very important document and get back us....

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT

....I'm willing to help you understand the big words.

 

Are you arguing it was meant to be a nation? I am saying it was never meant to be a nation, and that is factually correct. It's an economic union, if you want to argue it is also political union, then that is debatable, but since all member nations are independent and govern themselves, and many have their own militaries (others are NATO) it means EU is not a nation and was never meant to be one. The member States are far more independent from the union than US States from the Federal government.

 

Your quotation of my post, will cause readers to get the incorrect idea, that the words of both paragraphs are mine; you, in fact, seem to have that idea as well, based on the beginning of your reply. But, in truth, between the ellipsis and the 2nd part of your quotation, from my post, I included a quoted "<SNIP>," which spans the rest of that post; so the, "I," who, "can easily imagine some of those like-minded nations beginning to consider a similar move and setting up their own union once again," is not me, but rather the author of my SNIP.

Nevertheless, I did not know about Visegrad group, so thanks for the info. But what makes you think that group is still functional?

 

You missed this that Poland recently judged that their national laws can ignore EU-law,... and that is in a direct violation that Poland agreed upon when they freely agreed to be part of the EU. The other EU nations are going to financially punish Poland for their stance that they can do what they please within the EU, while rake in +20 billion euro from the EU to combat covid / economy problems that could go up to 50 billion.

 

That treaty is like 30 years old, and there is absolutely no progress being made to frame a common defense policy. They don't even have 1 mutual foreign policy, as in who you like and who you oppose... which is a key thing to start a war over something. That treaty is almost completely about 1 coin and EU citizenship. EU nations already were working together with policework = security. That too got a more prominent roll in that treaty, but was nothing new.

All in all the EU has laws are mostly about human rights, and freedom of press. That's where Poland's government objects because those laws give people too much freedom to their liking. Their judges recently ruled that national law and national interest are more important then that. Mind you, Poland has a law that fines and fires judges who do not comply with the interests of Poland, and the government gets to say who gets to be the next judge. That too is a violation of the EU, since it must be a non political organization who appoints judges = separation of power.

 

The cluelessness and amount of incorrect claims being made here is really mind-boggling.
The current Polish government has been trying to put its judical system on a leash for quite a few years. They simply don't want an independent judicary. Several judges have already been forced to retire or were fired, especially those who openly spoke out against this governmental maneuver. When Poland joined the EU, they signed treaties which clearly state that every member state has to ensure judicial independence; one of the main pillars regarding the separation of powers in a democracy.
The Polish government knew this and they also knew about the possible consequences if they wouldn't follow the treaties they signed. This has absolutely nothing to do with A is liberal, B is conservative and is being suppressed by A simply for being conservative or Soros writing letters telling the EU what to do. Neither does the European Union have anything to do with the former Soviet Union. What idiotic nonsense. The Polish government knew they would break European laws when they started firing judges and taking political control over their judiciary in order to remove its independence. A Polexit would harm Poland quite severly as it's one the biggest net recipients in the union. Every member state has rights, but also duties. Unfortunately, the current government is only interested in the benefits they can receive, they are not interested in attending to their duties, despite having agreed to do so when they joined.

 

Belgium at the heart of EU apoints his own constitutional court judges(bit like supreme court i gues) trough politics
12 judges 6 of them former members of parlement(politicians)
and the political party's generally take turns to put a name forward

so that sounds a bit hipocritical tbh if true.

 

Its telling than in 2016 about 22% od Polish citizens would have voted to leave EU, and now it is down to 16%, so if they leave its not because the people want it, but because of the populist party of Poland wants it. They want to reform their judicial system to a point where it would no longer be independent of the government, and instead serve partisan interests. Judicial independence is a key condition in EU, and in US it is mandated by the Constitution. Poles should be concerned about the direction their country is going.

 

But they can't be fired by the government. It's all about separation of powers.

 

The point is not whether one likes Poland's laws or what they do, but should the EU have power over the sovereignty of its members?

To me nations are different, cultures are different, and people are different and that should be respected. You can't put everyone in a single mold as if one's own set of standards is superior to that of others. What you're doing then is creating robots.

I personally consider it an enslavement of humanity.



P L E A S E *H E L P * U S

 

Exactly. Blame Canada... LOL

 

The Poles don't want to leave the EU because of the money they get. This doesn't mean that they are satisfied with the other regulations imposed on them. The money's going to end in about 3 years, and then Poland will be paying out - or at least that's what I gathered. Then what? Will they still want to remain in the EU. I don't think so!

 

If you want to remain a member, you need to meet certain standards, and judicial independence is a basic requirement (like it is in US Constitution), so if one nation wants to have a judicial system which is controlled by a political party, then it can have negative impact on other member States too. Its probably best for EU to let Poland go, as it is one of the least productive members to begin with. Its obviously NOT what Poles want, but they are at the mercy of their own government.

 

The poll was on general population, and less and less want to leave (down to 15%). They like the idea that they can work in any EU country, and make a good living for themselves. Its a big deal for Poles where per capita GDP is $15K when EU average is $40K, and much higher in some nations (even over $100K).

Why said anything about regulations? Not even the populists who are pushing for the judicial reform are complaining about the regulations, they just want to take over control of the courts, which EU will not agree with.

 

This could lead to war in Europe. But I’m actually opposed to the European Union so it would not hurt my feelers. Really Hitler wanted the exact economy for Europe that the EU provides. The EU just did it without mass murder and good on them for that. But they definitely effected the way other countries in Europe can independently handle their purse.

 

War between who exactly?

Not even close.


Poland would be good riddance for EU, not that Poland is leaving, but if they did it would benefit the EU.

 

But if the political party in charge ran on a ticket that they will change the judges, then they cannot and should not do otherwise since it's the will of the Polish people.

When I said regulations, I meant the laws of the EU. With Poland though remaining in the EU, it is purely economics. As long as they consider it financially beneficial they will stay - but they will not agree to that which they feel is detrimental to their country.

Germany doesn't want them to leave because they have large and small businesses that are heavily invested in Poland. This is why Merkel intervened.

As for the courts, I'm going to assume the judges are or were liberals, and their rulings went against the sentiments of the Polish people - who I believe are strictly observant Catholics. I know the Nazis wanted to destroy the Polish culture the way it did the Yiddish one, so they do have a history of impositions other than just the Soviet one.

This is the only reason I can see as to why the political party in charge would want the judges ousted and appoint their own.

As for the migrants, the Poles have been holding them off so far, and if they're forced to do otherwise, well I guess then it's war. I know that the Poles are the only ones that sent men to the river Evros to hold off the migrants when Erdogan was shipping them to the Greek border to enter and take over the country.

As for the other EU nations, they just closed their own borders and could care less about the EU borders. To give you an idea of what's going on, yesterday Pakistan was furious with Greece for allegedly killing a Pakistani citizen who tried to enter the country - yet according to Erdogan, the migrants are all Syrian refugees.

 

Yes!

​

Witness the above animated graphic. Or not.
Similar to NATO & The E.U.
is a forced servitude
of various peoples to a Ontario - Quebec Axis.

A Model for -
Germany destroying generations of Greek fisheries
with "factory ships" okay because
we all be NATO & E.U. is most demonstrative
of the system.

History
Bankers. Anglo-Saxon. After their thievery such as not
acknowledging H.B.C. "deeds"
accepting Quebec bankers as the Ottawa - Quebec Axis
controlling the alleged, nation.

was a model for Germany
and profiteering off The E.U., NATO and globalist excuses.


eh
@DennisTate

 

15% of Poles want to leave EU, so the will of the people is to stay. They are not changing judges, they are reforming the whole judicial system, so that is will no longer be independent of the ruling party, but rather under control of it. They are doing away with the separation of powers. Its a power grab. If it was the will of the people, then why are they protesting against the reform? The party did not run on a ticket of judicial reform, it is something they came up with later.

Right. The regulations are not an issue here.

Its not about the judges

The Poles are the ones who immigrated to other EU nations, - about 9 million of them, so there is that. And who would want to immigrate into Poland when its one of the poorest EU members.