Part 24 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

Nowhere in scriptures that said Barabbas was a murderer or a rapist that claim are coming from other posters such as GC.

The fall of Bathar and the massacre is no myth.

 

Yup I believe Barabbas was also a rapist.
You and your groups have not disputed my claim you have been insisting that I claim that was in the Scripture which clearly I never did claim that it is.


Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

 

LOLOL.. Nope YOU made the claim that Barabbas was a rapist.. and only you.

Bethar was a tiny hilltop village of fewer than 500 people.. The story of the slaughter is myth.. like so many of the OT stories.

 

Yes. Now sort it out for yourself.

 

We all know what happened to the preacher in the south who tried to handle poison snakes and these miraculous powers did not help either the disciples or their followers escape being killed by the Romans but that is another issue.

The miraculous powers of Jesus did not save him from the Romans either. It seems as if Jesus was hoping God would come to his rescue at some point but that never happened. The last words of Jesus are him accusing his God of forsaking him.

This passage, and in fact the whole physical resurrection story that you quote from Mark, was added to the story over 400 years later by some overzealous scribe. Jesus never said these things, at least not according to the author of Mark.

The Gospel of Mark ends with an empty tomb. Even 300 years later when Eusebius put the first Bibles the Gospel of Mark did not contain verses 9-18.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126

So because the long ending story is "old" by our standards it was included in modern Bibles.

The long ending was not written into Mark by the evangelist who wrote Mark and nor were the 3 other variants of the "long ending" you can read about in the link provided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_M._Metzger

So Bruce is not some atheist trying to destroy Christianity, in fact he is a bit of a Christian apologist. In another of his books in 1987 he writes.

Others critics that are less "apologetic" towards Christianity disagree and there are good arguments against canonicity but I am trying to work "from your side of the fence" so to speak.

The Diatesseron was a compilation by the Christian apologist Tatian to combine the material in the 4 Gospels into a single coherent narrative. (170-175 AD) It is here that supposedly we find the earliest record of the "long ending story". Arguments against acceptance of this evidence would state that we do not actually have a 175 Copy of the Diatesseron and so as with much of early Christian works this was subject to the same kind of tampering as the Bible.

The Diatesseron was used by the Syrian Church

The argument can be put forward that just as the Bible was changed ... so would other "Bibles - as this was used as a Bible" to maintain coherence.

In any case, regardless of whether or not one accepts the long ending of Mark as canon, we can say this much.

1) The long ending was not part of the Gospel of Mark nor was it written by the same hand as wrote the Gospel of Mark.
2) Even when later copyists started to include the long ending it was "marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document"

There seems to be some evidence that there were stories, various suggested endings to Mark, that might have been around some 100 years after the writing of Mark. Whether these stories were incorporated into the original version of works such as the Diatesseron is debatable. We do not have any early copies of this work and so it could as easily been changed over time just like the Bible. http://lmf12.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/tatianarticle.pdf


At the end of the day. The author of Mark writing some 35 to 50 years after the death of Christ, did not know how the story ended. He did not write about any physical resurrection happening after the death of his beloved Messiah.

 

I'm glad you like the story but in no way does my story prove that Noah separated himself from Sumerian Religion. Noah's Religion was the Sumerian religion.

Terah worshiped the Sumerian Gods. The reason he worshiped these Gods is because these were the Gods of his forefathers up to and including Shem an Noah who were still alive at the time of Terah.

The rest of your comments are mostly rambling mumbo jumbo having nothing to do with the point ... as usual. The time period in question is not before the flood, it is about what happened after the flood.

The God's that Noah and Shem were worshiping after the flood were the same Gods that the all their ancestors of the line of Shem were worshiping while Noah and Shem were still alive.

Terah's great great grandfather (Peleg) for example would sit on his fathers (Eber) knee. Having no television or internet and family lineage being very important Eber would tell Peleg of his origins and of the Gods.

Eber would tell Peleg that Eber's grandfather was Arphaxad who was the son of Shem. He would be told about how Shem survived a great flood with his father Noah.

Peleg would of course meet Arphaxad and probably sit on his knee .. as Arphaxad was his great grandfather and he would hear the same stories. Peleg would have probably met Shem and for sure know stories about Shem and "what he was up to these days" as all the people around him were also descended from Shem and so all these people had common things to talk about.

The population of Mesopotamia (all being descended from Shem) would not be very large. All would know the story of their ancestors very well.

Just as Peleg sat on his fathers and grandfather's knee. Terah would sit on Reu's knee (Peleg's son and Terah's great grandfather) Reu would tell Terah the same stories as his father Peleg told him.

Terah would learn that Shem and Noah were still alive and just like Peleg hear stories about "What is Shem up to these days".

All the people around Terah would also be able to trace their lineage back to Shem an they would share stories and of course all would be worshiping the same God's as their parents and their parents before them back to Noah and Shem... Who are still alive !

In fact all Terah's lineage, every single one, is still alive during Terah's lifetime. They are all worshiping the same Gods.

The God's they are worshiping are those of the Sumerian Pantheon. The Chief God of this Pantheon I "El" who is the God of Creation, The Father, and the God who sent the great flood according to these people.

When Peleg sits on his Grandfather's Shala's knee (Son of Arphaxad who's father is Shem) Peleg is told that it is Enlil (El) who sent the great flood.
All the people living in Mesopotamia at that time are also told the same story as the "great great grandfather" of all folks living in the region is Shem. In fact all these folks have contact with Shem either directly or indirectly though gossip.


When Terah sits on Peleg's son Rue's knee ... Terah is told the same story. Terah is told how the Creator God El sent a great flood. All those living around Terah at the time are similarly related to Shem, they are also told the same story, believe in the same Gods, and know through gossip what Shem and Noah have been up to lately.

 

You have stated many times barrabas was a rapist. If you didn't get it from the bible, where'd you get that claim from? You certainly wouldn't lie and simply make stuff up about what's in the bible?

 

The predecessor to the Laptop?

 

The part about handling snakes without harm...etc those powers were only given to Jesus disciples, Jesus gave them the power to do those things, it wasn't meant for others to do...silly!...lol

Again you are not understanding the Scripture, the powers didn't mean that they weren't going to die a physical death on earth...again you're being silly!...lol

They were to spread the word the "Good News" and boy did they ever succeed in that mission. Today we have approx. a little over 2 billion practicing Christians world-wide...hellelujah!

We are eventually all going to die a physical death but our souls will be saved and off to heaven we believers will go to live happily ever after with our Lord!

While all the unbelievers such as yourself will pay the penalty for your sins by being separated from God for all eternity and sent to hell.

 

If that statement is true then why does anything in the Bible apply to people of today? If Jesus restricted such things to his immediate listeners why do you pray and go to church?

 

I made the claim That Barabbas was a rapist and I will always man up for what I post on the other hand you guys lied that it was according to the Bible that Barabbas was a rapist and you guys are not man enough to admit you made a mistake.

Just like many claim that the holocaust is a myth?

Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

 

Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

I have sort it out Barabbas was a a criminal, rapist, murderer whom they chose over Christ they want Barabbas to be set free The question now is which crowd do you belong to the crowd for Barabbas the rapist, murderer or for Jesus Christ the Holy Man?

 

Yes I have stated Barabbas aside being a criminal he was also a rapist. And that claim is based on the context of the historicity of the Bible the difference between the way I discuss Bible history and you is that you take everything in the Bible out of context if the Bible said God punished the wicked and evil you would said God punished the innocent, if the Bible said Jesus is the Son of God you'll said he is not etc. and where did you get those ideas?

And the bottom line is you guys keep on lying that my claim was according to the Bible that Barabbas was a rapist. Even though clearly you guys made a bad "mistake" in misrepresenting what I post you guys still continue to make excuses for yourself.

Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

 

I am not very good in writing fictional books, comics or novels I do really appreciate to read and watch those amazing science fiction, myth and fables. Your hypothesis about Christianity or Judaism stands in equal footing with great writers such as J.R.R. Tolkin, George Lucas, Walt Disney, Stan Lee, Jerry Siegel, and the amazing Steven Spielberg and of course Sophia Stewart creator of The Matrix. The bottom line is Noah's ancestry is that of Sumerian he separated himself from the mainstream Sumerian religion of many gods and goddesses controlling the world and those gods just like the dinosaurs will disappeared become extinct how? No body knows what we know was that once upon a time they were mighty creatures that rules the earth they left lots of souvenirs of their existence.

I agree with parts of your hypothesis that Noah was a Sumerian. What ever similar words such as "El" is not surprising since that word mean God just like Allah is in Arabic for Christians to use the word Allah does not mean we are Muslims.

 

The story about Barabbas being pardoned instead of Jesus is intended to illustrate the concept that God will have mercy on whoever he wants to have mercy on and to show compassion to whoever he wants to be compassionate toward.

That concept is repeated several times, starting with Exodus 33:19 (NIV) = "And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The concept is repeated in Romans 9:15 and Romans 9:18 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 9:15-9:18&version=NIV;CEB;CEV;NKJV;MSG

It also validates Zechariah 12:10 (CEB) = "but I will pour out a spirit of grace and mercy on David’s house and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They will look to me concerning the one whom they pierced; they will mourn over him like the mourning for an only child. They will mourn bitterly over him like the bitter mourning over the death of an oldest child."

The concept illustrates that regardless of how bad (evil) a person might be that he is never beyond the tender embrace of God's mercy and compassion, unless the person is Esau. God still hates Esau.

 

In your state of utter denial you completely avoided addressing the point of the post which is that the long ending of Mark which you were quoting was not originally in Mark but added later.

Then you claim to speak for God by claiming that I am going to hell. What an arrogant thing to do.

Jesus had words for false prophets "folks that pretended to speak for God or Jesus "prophesying in his name" In this case that people who do not conform to your man made interpretation of scripture will go to hell.

In your gibberish rant you say "unbelievers" will go to hell.

1) What is it that you think folks should believe such that they are not condemned to eternal torture ?

2) Jesus says that only those that do the will of the Father will make it through the pearly gates. What is the will of the Father that Jesus is referring to in this passage ?

 

I see you have again receded into denial and are spouting gibberish. Shem is said to be the father of all in Sumer ... so it is not hypothesis according to the Bible.

What about my story did you find unbelievable ? Is it difficult for your to comprehend the idea that Shalah would tell his Grandson stories about Shalah's grandfather Shem ?

 

The very greatest threat is those tentacles connecting their myths with the reality of earlier history. The broad view we now have allows us to clearly see how it all evolved, and this is the worst thing possible. There are people alive today who refuse to learn anything of this background, because they know they can only support their dogma if it appears to be unique and special and utterly revolutionary. I know two such people personally. Terrified of academic theology and secular archaeolgy/history.

 

That doesn't relate to the comment I made in red. You make the same comment 'Jesus Christ the Holy Man'. You questioned whether the Bible said that and I told you 'Yes'.

 

Quote Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
Post 727: Wanren: When Pontius Pilate presented to the crowd two men Jesus Christ a Holy man and Barabas a criminal, rapist, murderer to chose whom they want him to set free the crowd chose Barabas to be set free and chose Jesus Christ to be crucified. The question now is which crowd to you belong to the crowd for Barabas or for Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ to those who do not believe he is the Messiah the Christ he is a holy man a prophet. And the presentation to the Pharisees to chose between Barabbas the criminal (rapist, murderer) and Jesus Christ the Holy Man by Pilate was that PIlate was hoping that they will chose the Holy Man over the criminal.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah or just a Holy Man?

 

Let us be clear that this is based on your opinion it has nothing to do with what is said in the Bible this a discussion I have no problem so I will respond to it according to the discussion.

It is a good illustration of God's mercy and all forgiving which was well displayed by Jesus Christ when he said "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do" and to one of the criminal that was crucified with him who ask Jesus Christ to remember him and Christ responded "Today you will be with me in paradise".

The fact of the matter was that Pilate do not believe Jesus is guilty of any crime he was just being bullied and single out because the Pharisees envy him or are afraid of Jesus growing popularity over them. Pilate tried everything to save Jesus in fact he even made sure that Jesus was being crucified not by the Romans but by the Jews under Jewish laws that is why he had the inscription place on top of Jesus Christ cross "JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS"

John 19:
4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”
5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

John 19:
19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
21 The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, “Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.”

Matthew 27
17 So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?”
18 For he knew it was out of self-interest that they had handed Jesus over to him.

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

 

No denial on my part I recognize your hypothesis, I recognize the fact the many religions pre existed Christianity, I understand that once upon a time earth was ruled by great and mighty creatures by gods and goddesses these great creatures and gods and goddesses will leave lots of evidences for us to wonder and ask our selves what happened to them why suddenly they all disappeared? Your story could be true that Shem would learn about the Sumerian religion and that it is a possibility that some descendants of Noah will revert back to practicing Sumerian religion while some will stay with the revelation to Noah that would be represented by Abraham. Even though some of Noah's descendants will revert back to their old Sumerian religion those gods and goddesses were no longer around all they were worshiping was just a memory of who those gods and goddesses were once was.

Today many outstanding writers and researchers have been able to wrote outstanding works depicting what it was once about those gods who once control this world, the struggle between humans and immortals, the many evidences that were left behind that are being research and studied in relation to history and religion and in some circumstances to its' relation to the One True God or to Christianity.

If you have read works of:
1. JK Rowling
2. JRR Tolkin
3. Stan Lee
4. Steven Spielberg
5. Jerry Siegel (creator of Superman)
6. Bill Finger (creator of Green Lantern)
7. William M Marston (creator of Wonder Woman)
8. Dan Brown (author of Da Vinci Code)
9. Sophia Stewart of The Matrix

etc. etc. Notice how your story resemble to theirs and in some respect it could be related to the Bible in some degree that started with Noah the Sumerian whom God revealed Himself and introduced who the One True God really was and is just how your story relate to the wars in heaven.

Revelation 12: 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.



Genesis 6
1. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

You are in denial WanRen because you refuse to look at what is being presented to you. I did not post the rest of your post because it does not address what was being posted. The part above is mindboggling. Even though you are kind of addressing the point your responses are "not" on point.

What does this have to do with Shem after the flood ? Do you think the earth was ruled by mighty creatures, gods and goddesses at this time ?

What Sumerian Religion. How could Shem possibly learn about the Sumerian religion when there are no other people on the Earth other than Noah sons and wives ??? There is no religion other than the one's that Noah and Shem believe in.

Shem experienced the power of God with his own eyes. What on earth are you talking about. Noah's revelation was Shem's revelation.... They were both there.

Shem is the father of all Sumerians. There is no Sumerian people and Sumerian religion when Shem gets off the boat.

The only way that the Sumerian Religion could have existed at this time is if this was already the religion of Shem an Noah.

 

There is no Sumerian people and Sumerian religion when Shem gets off the boat.

Was Sumer flooded?



Guess so ... it was flat and south towards Basra.

 

Of course there was no global flood that wiped out all people and all land creatures at the time (2000-2300 BC) when the Bible states it happened.

We have continuous civilizations all over the globe during that time period

I was going on the basis of "If we accept this as true" Then .......