Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

The 66 book Protestant is around 131-135 years old.

 

And the scripture from Jesus you are basing this comment on is ?

And Christians don't ?

 

no need to post scripture to those who don't believe scripture, there not going to believe it anyway. and its always the position of the none believer to use the excuse of what they think what a Christian ought to be, and acuse them of not being it, as an excuse and justification to others and themselves to not believe.

the Almighty is who and what He is, no matter who or what you think you or others are, and what you think they ought to be, the Judgement of God is the same.


and that Judgement of God to the believer is Life, and none believer are deceived to believe its the condemnation of their own lives, but the truth is its their own judgement that is their own condemnation.

 

I do believe in the teachings of Jesus. Regardless my belief or disbelief in scripture has nothing to do with the fact that you have not supported your claim in relation to the teachings of Jesus.

Second - you are spouting man made dogma as if this is "defacto" what Jesus taught ... if you can not back this up with the teachings of Jesus then this is blasphemy. "Speaking for God"

This is a sin against "the Logos" - it is a sin against the spirit (IMO).

Perhaps I am wrong - perhaps my interpretation is not correct. You better hope so because a sin against the spirit is what Jesus says is the one unforgivable sin.

 

how can you believe the teachings of Jesus when scripture is a documentation of His teachings are you full of it or what? its stupid and brain dead to say and or think one believes in the instructor and doesn't believe the instructions that are of the instructor. WOW what are you smoking?

yes but your opinion doesn't account for much considering the irrational statements you make. and yes your interpretations are always incorrect in the case of God's Word, and so is everyone else's interpretation. the only interpretation that is correct is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of God's Word to mankind. the correct and fulfillment to the satisfaction of the Father is the correct Way Truth and Life in God's will towards mankind.

therefore you should understand that man can't over come God in Heaven nor in earth, including anything His sees fit to retain, like the scriptures.

 

1) The Bible (scripture) contains more than the teachings of Jesus.
2) You made a claim about the teachings of Jesus - but thusfar, you have not shown any teachings of Jesus from scripture to back your claim up.

Rather than back your claim up - you are making a big straw man argument ( accusing me of not following the instructions of the instructor). What instructions of Jesus have I violated ?

I am not the one putting words in the mouth of Jesus. That would be you.

You claim "you have made irrational statements" but, have yet to point out anything I have said that is irrational.

You then go on and preach about "God's word to mankind". OK .. I am all ears if you want to tell me what you think God's word is (as per the the teachings of Jesus - The logos - emissary between man and God) but so far, when you gave one teaching that "YOU THINK" is a teaching of Jesus - and I asked you where Jesus had said this - you response was to demonize me,for questioning your dogma .. and claim that I was violating some of the instructions of Jesus.

And then you ask me what I am smoking ? I am not the one who can not answer a simple question in relation to my claims about Jesus. I am not the one freaking out and making all kinds of unsubstantiated accusations against a person who asked me to back up my claim in relation to Jesus. That would be you.

 

How can you believe in the teachings of Jesus when you don't believe what he said in Matthew 15:24 (CEB) = "Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”

&

http://www.bricktestament.com/the_parables_of_jesus/use_of_parables_explained/mk04_33-34.html (5 pictures)

 

Surely the King James version is considered the first Protestant Bible!
James, a secularist, wanted a Bible to settle differences between the Puritans - part of the C of E - interpretations
The Catholics have their own - larger - bible.

 

That's a common assumption but the KJV had all of the books, it was just written in English. Bibles contained all of the books until 1881-1885 when two Englishmen deleted the Apocrypha from the KJV. Everyone else except the Catholics obeyed. Even the first Protestant didn't delete any books in the Bible that he wrote.

Up until 1881-1885 the 1769 was the primary KJV. The 1769 KJV had the Apocrypha books.

I've covered this in detail in Post #11 in the The Evangelical Roots of Our Post-Truth Society thread.

 

It is hard for the majority of people to enter heaven let alone the rich.

We Read in Scripture:

13 "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." ---Matthew 7:13-14 NLT

But anyway let me bring up the passage that your question is in reference to, which is the passage of the rich man.

The Rich Man

16 Someone came to Jesus with this question: "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"

17 "Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments."

18 "Which ones?" the man asked.

And Jesus replied: "‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. 19 Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself."

20 "I’ve obeyed all these commandments," the young man replied. "What else must I do?"

21 Jesus told him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is very hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. 24 I’ll say it again—it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

25 The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked.

26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."

27 Then Peter said to him, "We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get?"

28 Jesus replied, "I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are the greatest now will be least important then, and those who seem least important now will be the greatest then." ---Matthew 19:16-30 NLT

The above passage we see Jesus using hyperbole which is a figure of speech that exaggerates for emphasis. What Jesus is saying here, and His message is very clear, is that it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits.

It was commonly taught by the rabbis that rich people were blessed by God because they saw wealth as proof of God's approval and therefore wealthy people were the most likely candidates for heaven.

But Jesus destroyed that idea/thinking along with the idea/thinking that anyone can earn eternal life. His disciples were astounded by His statement and that's why they asked Him, "Then who in the world can be saved?"

If the wealthy among them, which included the super-spiritual Pharisees and scribes, were unworthy of heaven, what hope was there for a poor man?

Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."

Men are saved through God’s gifts of grace, mercy, and faith, and not by our own merits.

We Read in Scripture:

8 "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." ---Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT

Nothing we do earns salvation for us. It is the poor in spirit who inherit the kingdom of God, those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their utter inability to do anything to justify themselves to a holy God. The rich man so often is blind to his spiritual poverty because he is proud of his accomplishments and has contented himself with his wealth. He is as likely to humble himself before God as a camel is to crawl through the eye of a needle.

We Read in Scripture:

3 "God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs." ---Matthew 5:3 NLT

 

We Read in Scripture:

2 Maccabees 15:39 (CEB) = "Just as it is harmful to drink wine or water alone while wine mixed with water is delightful and produces joy, so also may the writing of this story delight the ears of those who encounter this work. The end."

 

Did you know that some Bibles are missing not only words but whole verses?

Here's just one example, Acts 8:37 = https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts 8:37

 

"Bibles contained all of the books until 1881-1885 when two Englishmen deleted the Apocrypha from the KJV. Everyone else except the Catholics obeyed."............. Fascinating.

 

No, He didn't. The prosperity gospel teaches the opposite of what biblical Christianity teaches. The prosperity gospel teaches the believer to use God, whereas biblical Christianity teaches that God uses the believer.

The prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills, whereas the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enable the believer to do God's wills.

The Apostle Paul and other apostles urged Christians to avoid these destructive greed sects who were false teachers propagating heresy.

We Read in Scripture:

3 Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life. 4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. 5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.

6 Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth. 7 After all, we brought nothing with us when we came into the world, and we can’t take anything with us when we leave it. 8 So if we have enough food and clothing, let us be content.

9 But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. ---1 Timothy 6:3-10 NLT

We know that our Lord Savior Jesus Christ did not pursue a life of riches, that was not His goal.

We Read in Scripture quotes from our Lord Savior Jesus Christ:

15 Then he said, "Beware! Guard against every kind of greed. Life is not measured by how much you own." ---Luke 12:15 NLT

19 "Don’t store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal." ---Matthew 6:19 NLT

24 "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and be enslaved to money." ---Matthew 6:24 NLT

Instead of stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church, are to be free from the love of money.

We Read in Scripture:

Leaders in the Church

3 This is a trustworthy saying: "If someone aspires to be a church leader, he desires an honorable position." 2 So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3 He must not be a heavy drinker or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money." ---1 Timothy 3:1-3 NLT

5 Don’t love money; be satisfied with what you have. For God has said,
"I will never fail you.
I will never abandon you." ---Hebrews 13:5 NLT

 

You contradict yourself. Jesus is not saying that one is saved by "Faith". In fact he says the opposite.

Question (from the disciples) - "who can be saved" Jesus - "it is impossible for man but not for God"

By your own interpretation - Man can not be saved by his own merits. "Faith" is a merit so "Sola Fide" is SOL.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:17-31&version=NIV

If you read the footnotes it tells you that some manuscripts read (bold). The first thing you might want to consider is how this changes the context of the text. The point is not "how" this changes the context of the text .. but simply that it does.

The Bible contains many many edits, revisions, interpolation, mistranslation - That we know of. How much more do we not know of?

Back to the text - The disciples are saying that most people trust in riches ... how on earth can anyone be saved.
Note that Jesus does not say that it is impossible for a rich man to get into heaven .. just very difficult.

You are trying to make this a "Black vs White" issue and it is not. This passage merely states that with God's help what seems impossible can be possible. You are reading way to much into it and trying to fit your man made dogma into this passage.

There is an element of faith to this passage but, Jesus does not say "just have faith" and you will be saved. There is a big difference between "just have faith and you will be saved" and having faith that what seems impossible is possible for God.

 

no faith is not a merit, as one would think, a rabbit places his trust that in what he perceives that it is safe to go eat that carrot. all flesh have the capacity to see and believe, and place their trust according to what their senses in the flesh, and experiences tell them. not a distinction to the life of mankind.

but one doesn't have faith in what he has never heard nor seen, he can't know without revelation. therefore God's revelation in and through His Word in His Presence gives the place for such faith, so by grace through faith is salvation accomplished, for it was man's doing to place his faith and trust in a lie at the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that cost them the life they had in the Presence of God. they didn't trust and believe the commandment and believed and or trusted something else. God's Judgement, don't eat that, their own judgement, they ate and died from the life they had.

 

Please try and stick to the context of the passage. Did you not see the part about trying to fit scripture into man made dogma ?

"Sola Fide" doctrine - salvation by faith alone - is something someone does in order to gain salvation.

According to Mitt's interpretation of the passage - There is no way for man, of his own volition (nothing he can do) to gain salvation.

Whether it is deeds or having faith ... this is something of man's own volition. So this contradicts Mitt's interpretation of the passage.

I do not share Mitts interpretation.

While you may think salvation comes through faith alone .. and you are welcome to your opinion. Jesus contradicts this interpretation and the majority of Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) rejects sola fide.

It is pretty bold to claim "defacto" that "Sola Fide" is the way to heaven. This is mighty close to putting words in Gods mouth (the sin against the spirit - the one unforgivable sin IMO)

Consider the last words of the Sermon on the Mount - Matt 7

Clearly the people who Jesus is referring to have "faith". Heck they prophesy and perform miracles in his name. Yet.. they do not get through the pearly gates.

"Only those who do the will of the Father" get in. What is the will of the Father ? Before you answer with some man made dogma...written after Christs death .... I do not care.

The question here is what did Jesus mean when he said these words. At the time there were no writings of Paul and so on.
This comment is made at the end of his Sermon (Matt 5-7). It is the summary of his sermon. The "Will of the Father" are the things that Jesus has just talked about in this Sermon.

What then does Jesus talk about in this Sermon ? - the context of which is how to get into heaven/do the will of the Father.

1) He opens with: Blessed are the poor in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
What does this mean ? Is Jesus referring to the Pharisees ? Don't know but it sure is not saying "Faith alone" gets you in.

2) Jesus talks about severity of sin .. that some will be greater in heaven and some less so - based on their deeds - teaching children the commands.

3) The rest of the sermon is works, works and more works. Some of the commands from the OT and a whole lot of stressing the Golden Rule "Treat others as you would be Treated- Do unto others what you would have done to you".

4) Not once does Jesus mention faith in him as a means to salvation. Part of the will of the Father is to love god - but, this is just part of the will of the father. No mention about faith in Jesus. We could say faith in the teachings of Jesus ... OK ... the teachings in the Sermon are works works and more works.

5) “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

It is not just the hearing of the words but, the putting of the words into practice. None of the words of Jesus in this sermon say "have faith in me. What words is Jesus then referring to ?

Don't kill, Don't shag neighbors wife (in fact do not even lust after neighbors wife as this can lead to sin), help the poor, be humble, and then various variations on the Golden Rule which Jesus says "Sums up the law and the Prophets" - talk about emphasis such as: Love neighbor as self, treat others as you would be treated, take stone out of own eye before picking speck out of brothers, judge not lest you be judged... followed by explanations about what putting those words into practice means.

It is not for nothing that the majority of Christianity rejects Sola Fide.

It is not that I think the Catholic/Orthodox got it right (although I think Ortho is much closer than Catholic). We have to remember that the "universal Church" was an offshoot of Pauline Christianity - and the victors write (and rewrote in this case) the history books.

The Church founded by the disciples and led by James - Church of Jerusalem - is mostly lost to us. We do not have anything that we know was written by the disciples and the Church after Constantine destroyed anything they could get their hands on that conflicted with the doctrine of the day which was heavily influenced by Paul and the Emperors "Trinity" decree.

That in mind .. I think it is reasonable to assume that this Sermon from Jesus - even though transmitted through oral history - is getting close the real Jesus. Someone may have wrote contents of the sermon down prior to Matt.

A few sayings from this sermon are given in Mark (which is found in its entirety in Matt - sans a few passages the author things are derogatory to Christ or the disciples - a small bit of pious fraud via the sin of omission - dogma is already changing the perspective of Jesus)
but, there this sermon - unfortunately - is not found in Mark.

While the Jesus of Matt is rapidly evolving from the Jesus in Mark (along with the dogma of the day), we still get at least what the dogma of the day was - sans the Pauline influence. A dude who was not even a Christian until years after the death of Christ, who was not a member of the Church of Jerusalem and who almost never associated with the disciples - and when they did there was conflict.

The question here then is ... what did the audience that Matt was intended for believe. And more problematic to Sola Fide .. what did the audience that Mark - reputed to be a disciple of Peter (the closest we get to a disciple of Jesus) writing some two decades or more prior to Matt believe.

 

I thought the O/P on this chain of threads got banned ?!

 

According to the Bible the Israelites are God's chosen people and all of the Gentiles will become their slaves. So the Israelites don't need faith or works.

According to the Babylonian Talmud each Jew will get 2,800 slaves in the afterlife and no rabbi will go to hell. So again they don't need faith or works.

Now, if what they believe is true what good will it do for any Gentile to be "saved"? He will just spend eternity as a slave.

 

Funny stuff .. some of these fairy tales are quite entertaining.

 

Some of them do dove-tail very neatly. While we may not believe them billions of other people do. The thing is that almost all of them don't have a clue what's in their favorite fairy tales.

 

go on all you want but the ACT is out of faith (trust/belief) and that faith turns into hope (not the American redefinition of hope) which is originally expectation.

I just posted something to this effect somewhere else on the subject of the difference between faith and hope:

a teenager tells his buddy he like some girl, his friend tells him to not be afraid and talk to her. hence he trusts what his friend says and ACTS with the expectation of fulfilment. therefore without the ACT there was no faith, hence the statement that many bring up that James said on works.

people don't obey laws and or religious laws without supervision unless that believe/trust its source and that the judgement is good for the fulfillment of what is expected.
the faith is first, Jesus looked for it where ever He went and honored it faithfully , its not just what Jesus says though yes it is the Truth the Truth of God but what He did is the interpretation. He didn't honor pay any real attention to or have any real respect of those who didn't believe or trust Him.

He Himself said that God's work is to believe on He who God has sent.

and the Lord Lord thing isn't complicated at all, an act such as many do for others to see, isn't an act of faith in He who spoke. its an act of faith that they will get others to believe they are one of them for what ever reasons, could be to gain their trust so on and so forth.

God sees the hearts of men like people see each others faces, one glance and He sees what is there, A&E's act was because they believed trusted something other than what God told them. therefore they didn't believe trust God. hence ill placed faith destroyed man and now faith saves man, not complicated at all.

but the revelation is required to believe, can't believe or trust what you are not aware of. and in this case that would be God not those who talk about Him.

anything else is pretty much covered in Paul's statements here:

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


which is to say

Pro 16:11 A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.

which simply means if its not of the Lord it has no weight in the Kingdom of God nor will it be in the Kingdom of God.
which is between the Lord and the one who claims Him Lord.

 

Thanks for ignoring my entire post and not addressing any of the points in my post, and bleating man made dogma without an iota of scriptural support for that dogma as per the context of the post.

 

This seems just as hard to explain as is Government of the USA.

 

I answered the question by just saying a few things on how I know God is smarter than man. Would you prefer the long answer by me? Like I said I could write several books on how I know God is smarter than man...lol