Peter Dutton, white farmers yes, war refugees no....

eh no, deep down I know what these people are going through and it's very very bad, genocide.. even though many want to deny it. Systematically being erased from existence.

Well you obviously do, you grade suffering... sitting in your safe environment I question your ability to do it effectively and fairly. Certainly I can't do it, choose between refugees, it comes down to how you feel about them, who do you feel most sorry for, based on your own fears and experiences, how you relate, it's the part of us that are human, compassion and relating to someone in pain are connected.

"like us" is a major reason, many Australian's prefer migrants like us, but does that mean because they are "like us" their suffering are less, I don't believe it is, clearly you do.

 

OK, my mistake. This has been 'feelpinion' territory from the start, which makes it immune to fact or rational argument. Disagreement was never really an option. If this really matters to you then vote Liberal. Dutton might just get what he wants given the power he has right now. Other than that people who are actually facing genocide will get preference.

 

Really... a feelpinion, I clearly state you should leave feelpinion out of the equation because you can't quantify it. Scrap it, leave it out... stop trying to grade suffering

 

A very good response, the problem is when it is personalised, it becomes personal. I am not even sure I could not personalise something myself if put in that position.
However, sometimes we just have to, it is our job to. Take for example a thief and a police officer were shot and both rushed to hospital. The medical team have to make a decision based on the condition of the person, not what he is as a person.

Politicians should in cases like this that are divisive enough amongst the general population, especially one that can be considered to be racist or religious based, be able to separate their personal beliefs and look at it from an objective rather than subjective point of view.

The argument that they are farmers and would be of benefit rather than a dependence, is terribly mercenary which defies what refuge means. It is also based on a false premise that we have a shortage of farmers when we have so many farmers finding it tough.

Middle Eastern refugees bring an ability to farm deserts better, an entire new industry and a dramatic change in what we farm.

My father was a vegetable farmer 60 - 70 years ago. He said that the only vegetables that were available were the basics. Potatoes ,tomatoes, onions, cabbage etc. Now we have 10 times the variety.

Multiculturalism has grown Australia in so many ways it is hard to even imagine living in the world envisioned by the "white Australia" policy.

This whole idea is based on personal point of view which includes a false premise, and is designed more to appeal to a vocal minority rather than the beliefs of the silent minority.

 

LR to me the claims we're going back to "white Australia" policy because for the first time in forever some white people need the refugee visa is overkill, it's the equivalent of the #metoo campaign comparing touching a knee to rape. We're not talking millions of people here, a tiny number by comparison to the millions of middle eastern and African refugees that would like entry.

It is with a bit of irony that I came across an article this morning on "is ethnic status quo racism" and I'm not ethnic status quo, but I think it's a very reasonable question, especially considering how many people are voicing their concerns about the unstoppable coming change of Australia's culture. Australia will change and we should all accept that, but does it make those people who do prefer not to have a cultural/ethnic change racist. I'll quote the last few paragraphs as the first deals much with statistics.

Immigration and White Identity in the West
How to Deal With Declining Majorities

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/arti...ite-identity-west?cid=nlc-fa_fatoday-20180404

 

1) They cannot change the colour of their white skin, but a homosexual person can change their behaviour.

2) jeebus h christo ... I'm not even white (and my family is very not white), I'm a leftie, and I hope Dutton pursues this. We need culturally similar, hard working, industrious people in this country. These SA farmers are such people. Unlike some of you, I don't give a sh!t what their skin tone is.

 

Peter Dutton was wrong to call his own country in that way but his humanitarian visa proposal has not been retracted yet. Usually, the special term is reserved for Britain which regards itself as the most civilised nation in the world and it's hard to disagree when the term is stated in a posh accent.

 

Cool, no more 'grading suffering' and no more implying that 'grading suffering' is some morally compromised activity. I'm taking the moral high ground now and treating all suffering as equal.

I know some people in America suffering terrible mental distress because Trump is President. I know some people in England suffering mental distress because their nation is no longer as white as it used to be. All these people are in danger of serious depressive illnesses. That is a form of mental torture that can sometimes result in death. Now, none of these people are refugees at this point, but we've clearly established that doesn't matter any more. I propose that we rush them to the front of the queue for refugee status.

As we are no longer 'grading suffering' (what a horrible thing to do) then they are as worthy of a refugee place as someone with a big farm in Sth Africa or someone who has spent decades in a refugee camp in Congo. All suffering is suffering, right?

 

They can change their occupation & place of residence more easily than any homosexual can change their identity. All these farmers have to do is sell their farms & move to a town. Then they will be at substantially less risk then non-white Sth Africans. Problem solved!

Of course, that isn't what this is about. You clearly don't like homosexuals, but you do want white people taking up spots in the refugee program. Simples!

What a confused post. You don't care what their skin color but you want 'culturally similar' people. One of these things is clearly not true. I don't imagine you are proposing we give preference to non-white Sth African farm workers, who have also been attacked. That certainly isn't what Dutton is proposing.

 

BF this comment here demonstrate to me that you do not have a clear understanding of the problems these South African white farmers face. Take all the complexities of an Australian Farmer having to give up (not sell - there is no compensation for land) his land and move to the city. Then add a 27% unemployment rate and Affirmative action employment policies in the following order;

1. Black man
2. Black woman
3. White woman
4. White man

There is no selling farms and moving to the cities means living on the streets

 

And homosexuals can't just stop being homosexual. That was the context of the comments. Give me a choice between being a white sth African farmer and a homosexual in a large swathe of African nations and it isn't even close.

The unemployment rate for whites is less than a quarter the level you have given there, so I'm afraid that claim isn't going to get much sympathy.

Additionally, I don't believe your claims about 'no compensation' and 'no selling'. Those changes have not been made to he Constitution & those laws have yet to be passed. Farmers in Sth Africa can & do sell up all the time. There are whole websites dedicated to it. (would you like links, or are you happy to google it yourself?)

So, compared to changing one's sexual orientation, selling a farm, moving to a town or city (or emigrating) and removing the risk of being a white farmer is much, much, much easier.

 

1) IF they're being persecuted because they're farmers, sure.

2) It's you who is confused, and clearly don't understand the difference between race and culture. CULTURALLY complimentary people can be from any part of the world, and any colour. The Chinese are culturally complimentary to the west, as are Indians, and some Africans (Nigerians, for example). Unlike some folk here, I don't give a damn about skin tone, and any industrious, hard working, and culturally complimentary migrant/refugee is welcome, as far as I'm concerned. It just happens that in this case, the majority of those (SA Farmers) in question are white. And all of what I said was true.

 

I said NOTHING about changing sexual orientation. I referred to desisting from participating in homosexual ACTIVITY. Completely different, and very doable. Requires nothing but self-control.

Selling a farm in SA in the current climate, not so much.

 

The whole thing is hypothetical anyway, at the moment the big issue is a law and order one. South Africa today carries a lot of deep scars on both sides and the transition from the apartheid South Africa of old to the new South Africa always seemed to "easy".

Yes there is disproportionate racism but it's not all one way. South Africa is trying to change to something that pulls a lot of scars off old sores.

We see what is happening from a guilty conscience, the thought of the colonised countries being handed back to the traditional owners scares the crap out of Australians and Americans.

This is an extremely complex issue and would need significant bending of the definition of refugees.

The arguments I see here are passion vs logic.

We have to use logic to base our decision, it is the only way of justifying the decision to both sides. Whether they accept it or not is another matter.

 

So you expect people to adopt a life of celibacy and you clam that is easier than selling a farm in Sth Africa (something that happens thousands of times per year). You aren't even trying to hide your prejudices, are you?

 

Sympathy lol I'm stating facts, I approve of Affirmative action, it's fair and right what is not fair and right is;
a.) a racist black South African government (you are completely ignoring their racism btw where's your outrage) taking land with no compensation from South African white farmers (Constitution changes due in August which is only 4 months away btw - no need for me to Google I'm aware of when this is going down)
b) the systematic killing of white farmers in the most brutal manner

Again there's no comparison it's feelpinion remember.

btw being a South African policeman is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, a South African white farmer is four times more likely to die than a SAP

and ps. who's going to buy a farm they know the government is going to take. You've got to be really really really ****ing stupid

 

I'm stating facts too, white unemployment in Sth Africa is under 7% - better than some European nations.

The government isn't taking farms without compensation, as you claimed. It may pass a Constitutional amendment later this year (September at the earliest) to do that, but its statements are contradictory. The precise details of what will happen are unknown. Lets wait for the Parliamentary committee to get back on August 30. So, your claims that it is already happening are just more BS.

Given the small numbers involved the 'systematic killing' you speak of must be one of the worst attempts at 'systematic killing' in history. What is happening to some farmers is awful, but it is dwarfed in scale by so many other events. Exaggerating is not helping your case.

As for my 'outrage', I haven't been expressing any. I'm leaving that to you. You seem to have cornered the market on outrage at one situation while denouncing any attempt to point out other situations worthy of outrage. A cynical soul might suggest that your 'all suffering is the same' mantra is a transparent attempt to privilege your personal outrage.

You are the expert. Pretty much ever post on this thread. BTW, you never did get back to me on pushing depressed Americans & Brits to the front of the queue for refugee entry.

Stupid would be accepting anything you've said without doing my own research. You continue to wildly misrepresent what is happening in Sth Africa & then throw around insults when you get caught out.

 

The degree of difficulty (of ceasing homosexual behaviour) is necessarily going to be different for every individual. In other words, the difficulty is entirely subjective. The degree of difficulty of selling a farm in SA in 2018 however, is NOT subjective.

I have no personal prejudice, restricting my approach to cold hard logic.

 

So this is your argument... it's not happening? Incredible....if it's not happening then why are we even here in this thread talking about it. Wildly misrepresent? That's insane I've barely scratched the surface with what's going on over there...what's the point ... you're not interested and you couldn't give a **** anyway.

You're opposing this issue because you think if you yell racist loud enough you're morally superior. The irony here is that the target of racism is whites and you're still crying "stop the racism" against black people. I've been to South Africa a few years ago, black South Africans are moving ahead in leaps and bounds, millions of them are doing great, pity people like you still see them as beggars... they are not, they don't need this, they don't need their racist government to take the farmers land. Nor do they want their government to sanction the killing of white farmers.

 

Fact check seems to indicate that the figures suggesting that white farmers are being slaughtered at alarming rates does not hold any water it seems.

In among these figures black farmers are also victims of these attacks which tend to suggest that the attacks are not racially motivated.

I’m certainly not even one little ounce convinced that the situation in SA is dire in comparison to the sad situation of war asylum seekers who have absolutely no where to go and very little access to services and sadly living in tents....you are talking millions!


http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...e-south-african-farmers-murdered-year/9591724

 

Hmmm,
and I will again throw a bit more spice in in saying,
Peter Dutton is only helping the white SA farmers, because they are white and mainly Christian from a Commonwealth country.
Because if they weren't our (non racist of course) white Christian government wouldn't give a rats ass about their destiny.
They can't give a damn about other refugees from mainly Muslim countries or else.
But we still haven't worked out which system should be in place to make it fair for all refugees....
Reg.
P.S.: I can't imagine someone would buy a farm from a white SA, to be honest....

 

They deserve to live free and safe from harm but they still have options in their country. The first one is ensure historical social injustices and inequity is supported and addressed. They cannot cry foul over a system that was heavily biased towards them for centuries and discrimated blatantly and horrifically against others, who are now complained about today as “perpetrators” of injustice! Of course not all whites think like this in SA but their laws regarding apartheid spoke volumes about what the general consensus was it seems!

Dutton’s position is more based on his disappointment at the abolition of a racist system and not a consideration of whether these people are in dire need of support. I wonder what his thoughts were or are on apartheid? There is no doubt in my mind he is an advocate!