Pregnant US inmate seeks jail release because fetus is ‘innocent’

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Junkieturtle, Feb 24, 2023.

  1. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is the kind of nonsense that fetal personhood can bring about. I don't know the details of the crime she committed, it's not really the point here, but if she was found guilty she should be in jail, pregnant or not. The fetus in her belly does not mean she should be released, but if you're of the mindset that the fetus is a person then it's a terrible crime that an unquestionably innocent "person" has to be in jail.

    Luckily, even anti-abortionists realize the very idea that fetal personhood would extend beyond the abortion debate into something like this is laughable. That's because fetal personhood only exists as a weapon against abortion. Nothing more. Not ever.



     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2023
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  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This has nothing to do with fetal personhood. Whether a fetus, which is growing inside a womb, is in prison or not is immaterial. It won't have an effect on the fetus. I suppose you could argue health of the woman, but in most cases pregnant prisoners get extra special care to make sure their fetus is healthy.
     
  3. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    The entire issue is literally because of fetal personhood. That's the whole point behind why the woman says she should be released. Because her fetus is innocent and innocent people don't belong in jail.
     
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  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    If fetuses are deemed legal "persons" then that should apply to everything not just abortion.

    If she thinks the fetus is innocent because it's a person with rights then how dare she confine it in her womb!

    If she doesn't want it in jail then she should have it taken out of her and let it leave prison.

    It isn't confined in jail , it's confined in her and I demand she release it!!

    It's a hostage situation and she's committing additional crimes of kidnapping and extortion

    :)
     
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A fetus is already "imprisoned" in a womb.

    In fact, I'd personally argue that it doesn't make all that much difference if a newborn baby is in prison or not. If I had my way, there would be a special program that would allow mothers in prison to keep their babies for the first 10 months after birth. (I even think maybe it should be required, to lessen the burden on social services)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it illegal to imprison innocent people ????

    Ya, it makes a difference when one is born in jail
     
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That could be a deep and long philosophical and legal discussion, FoxHastings. I am not sure there is actually any specific law that makes it "illegal" to imprison innocent people, in general. It is more of a legal concept.
    There are many cases where "innocent" people can be "imprisoned". For example, elderly people in nursing homes with severe Alzheimer's who would wander off and get lost. Young children are usually not just allowed to wander off anywhere they want to go with complete freedom.

    You can read the Wikipedia article "Prison nursery". There are already several prisons that have special programs for mothers who give birth in prison so the baby can stay with her, for a limited period of time. It's not extremely common but they do exist.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Isn't it illegal to imprison innocent people ????


    .

    No, it doesn't need a deep and long philosophical and legal discussion, kazenatsu.

    It IS illegal to imprison innocent people....no "philosophy crap" needed... so if a woman is pregnant in jail then the law is imprisoning an innocent person the fetus (according to Anti-Choicers fetuses are persons with all rights of the born.).... THANKFULLY the fetus has NOT been deemed a person by any law...




    They are not imprisoned per the OP TOPIC...or any other way....that isn't imprisonment, that is care...



    So what? Nothing to do with the topic....
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wouldn't it also be "care" if the fetus remains inside the womb, or the mother continues to provide care to the baby while in prison?

    Even for a newborn baby, being in prison will not really necessarily infringe on the baby's freedom in any meaningful way.

    So I see most of the same arguments applying to a baby outside of the womb as I do a fetus inside of the womb.

    Besides, the baby probably could temporarily be taken out of prison if some other family members wanted to take care of the baby, although it probably depends on the prison program and would have to be on a convenient timetable for the prison. (I doubt they're going to let the imprisoned mother take care of the baby between 7:00 to 5:00 and then let another family take the baby after that every day)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't need a deep and long philosophical and legal discussion, kazenatsu.

    It IS illegal to imprison innocent people....no "philosophy crap" needed... so if a woman is pregnant in jail then the law is imprisoning an innocent person the fetus (according to Anti-Choicers fetuses are persons with all rights of the born.).... THANKFULLY the fetus has NOT been deemed a person by any law...


    Totally irrelevant to the topic and OP...
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it's illegal, how is it that prison nurseries can exist?
     
  12. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Fetal personhood is ridiculous, but the main problem with the argument is that a minor's disposition is inherently custodial anyway. They aren't free for the same reason institutionalized crazy people aren't free. They are a danger to themselves if given freedom. Thus innocent children (and crazy people) are inherently "locked away" by default and must be treated humanely, but aren't free to begin with. So prison, protective custody, whatever, it's all moot because their freedom wasn't taken away arbitrarily. It was taken away for their own protection already.
     
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  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately you would be wrong

    https://www.publichealth.columbia.e...-neglect-pregnant-people-who-are-incarcerated
     
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  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    I am willing to give a foetus the status of personhood the minute it signs a paper saying it will accept that

    upload_2023-2-26_21-23-43.jpeg
     
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  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    It IS illegal to imprison innocent people...


    Easy ... babies need care.....and if someone besides the mother can legally give them care they are free to go.


    Now try to address:


    It IS illegal to imprison innocent people....no "philosophy crap" needed... so if a woman is pregnant in jail then the law is imprisoning an innocent person the fetus (according to Anti-Choicers fetuses are persons with all rights of the born.).... THANKFULLY the fetus has NOT been deemed a person by any law...

    Ya know, back to the TOPIC....
     
  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Oh, the naivete ! You think taxpayers don't pay for prisons, !!!!!:roflol:

    You think babies should be imprisoned for the convenience of others!

    And, yes, being in prison does affect newborns..

    Now back to the topic....should a woman be allowed to stay out of prison if she's pregnant because it's imprisoning another person ?

    No.
     
  17. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    Not really new. I think this has been tried and has failed before. When the baby is born, it gets to go to relatives or social services after a few weeks, but mom stays behind bars.
     
  18. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I DO think fetuses past a certain point should have rights, but I don't see the issue here. The fetus is in the womb. It can't tell the difference, it already lacks freedom and will for years even after birth.
     
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  19. gamma875

    gamma875 Banned

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    How about after that? Why would an innocent child be deprived of the love of his/her mother?
     
  20. gamma875

    gamma875 Banned

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    Per the OP the woman has NOT been convicted of any crimes and is innocent till proven guilty, yet she is in jail.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    That sounds normal for a murder charge...
     
  22. gamma875

    gamma875 Banned

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    Some people have been found not guilty.
     
  23. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    The fetus is within his/her mother. The fetus is not in jail. The fetus wasn't sent to jail. And being in the womb of the mother is not punishment, but essential.

    If the mother made a better decision and enrolled in college instead of committing a crime...this doesn't mean the fetus is enrolled in college. The fetus isn't taking classes when the mother attends school. The fetus isn't attending school. He or she is simply developing in the mother's womb.
     
  24. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't disagree with any of what you said but the concept of fetal personhood does. If a fetus is a person, putting it in jail with the mother is wrong. You wouldn't put a born child in jail with it's mother, would you? It doesn't matter if it HAS to be in the mother, it's still an innocent and is being wrongly subjected to punishment it did not earn and would not understand. That's the folly of fetal personhood and the result of pushing this concept for anti-abortion purposes while pretending it shouldn't or can't have any implications outside of that debate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  25. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    No. Your line of thinking is an illogical stretch. The child isn't being punished by being in the womb of the mother if she's in jail. The child isn't getting an education by being in the womb of a student going to college.
    The unborn doesn't yet have personhood legally. But the unborn child is an individual and vulnerable human being...and twisting and manipulating to show that it's OK to kill it at will...won't work with this elastic argument.
     

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