Presidential Pardons, what is the idea?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Ronald Hillman, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    928
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As a Brit trying to understand the US political system I find it hard to understand why a president gives pardons to convicted criminals. I am not against the idea, the British government has pardoned Alan Turin for his homosexuality based crimes and WW1 soldiers shot whilst suffering shell shock.

    Not interested in Trump bad, Obama worse type statements just trying to understand the idea of Presidential pardons
     
  2. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's intended to correct injustices, like a long prison term for marijuana possession. Very similar to your UK example. It's not intended to be used as bait for CYA operations, which is what the Flynn pardon is about. Ironically, if Flynn accepts, he's admitting guilt. First he lied. Then he lied again. Then he said he lied about lying. Now he has the opportunity to say he was lying about saying he lied about lying.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    Lee Atwater and Ronald Hillman like this.
  3. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    17,657
    Likes Received:
    6,071
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is a presidential perk, supposedly designed to reverse injustices as is the case with Michael Flynn. Flynn plead guilty to lying to the FBI. However, he did that under pressure and threats from the FBI. The FBI agents who interviewed him said they thought he told them the truth. One has to look past his pleading.

    Presidential pardons are sometimes political or, sometimes, impossible to understand for the general public. Like everything in government they don't always achieve their goals .
     
    Ronald Hillman, LoneStarGal and garyd like this.
  4. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In the case of Flynn. Obama weaponized the FBI against political opponents. The FBI forced Flynn through intimidation into a felony plea deal for a crime he didn’t commit while withholding exculpatory evidence. Since no crime was evident in the first place the DOJ properly dropped the case. The political judge did not want to drop it so continued to drag it out even though the appeals court ordered him to proceed quickly. He had no choice to drop it so dragging it into the next Presidency could see the new DOJ reverse and prosecute.

    The persecution of a highly decorated General with a spotless record simply because he joined the Trump team was a travesty.
     
    Thought Criminal and Gatewood like this.
  5. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No he isn’t since no decision was ever passed and the judge had no choice to drop a case no longer prosecuted.
     
  6. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Incorrect. Everything was settled but the sentencing.
     
    Lee Atwater likes this.
  7. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    24,635
    Likes Received:
    12,424
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As problematic as the Flynn pardon obviously is, the Stone commutation is equally as egregious if not more so. It was a reward for refusing to tell Mueller the truth about Stone's involvement with Wikileaks' document dumps and his communications directly with Trump on the subject.

    No prez should be able to pardon people in a case he is a party to.
     
  8. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,949
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's an executive power delineated in Article II Section 2 of the Constitution. Usually, it's a power exercised by an outgoing President because of potential political ramifications. In Trump's case, it's more about not trusting the presumptive incoming administration to do anywhere near the right thing wrt those receiving pardons.
     
    Thought Criminal and Gatewood like this.
  9. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    6,949
    Likes Received:
    3,925
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This post belongs in the conspiracy theory forum. You and your sidekick should pitch a tent there as opposed to hijacking a thread for which a specific purpose was articulated in the OP.
     
  10. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have a sidekick? He's asking for top billing, isn't he? I knew it, I knew it.

    Awww...triggered Trumpers are cute.

    Clue: Innocent people don't get pardoned.
     
  11. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Wrong again. The case was dropped. The judge decided to step out of line and become a prosecutor.
     
    LoneStarGal likes this.
  12. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The case, to this day, has not been dropped. At the time Barr interfered, attempting to get the case dropped, it had been in the sentencing phase.

    Those are just facts.
     
  13. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The prosecutors dropped the case long ago. Only prosecutors can bring or drop a case.
     
  14. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My god, Hoosier, if the case has been dropped, what is Trump pardoning him for? Give this a moment's thought, please.
     
  15. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    23,899
    Likes Received:
    9,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You were right in the beginning of your post.

    What happened to Flynn was travesty. All rogue FBI agents who prosecuted(persecuted) him were dishonorably discharged, the original FBI agents who interviewed him deemed him telling the truth, he was spied on and interrogated based on bogus, unconstitutional and never used Logan act, they lied to him that he did not need an attorney, they were deciding whether the goal was to fire him or imprison him, they deliberately bankrupted him, they blackmailed him with jailing his children.

    Duh Kudos to Trump for correcting injustices indeed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    Thought Criminal likes this.
  16. Borat

    Borat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    23,899
    Likes Received:
    9,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The case was dropped by the prosecution, a rogue leftist judge was looking for some legal tricks and technicalities to keep the case open... the case would be dropped sooner or later but Trump and Flynn had no interest in waiting and entertaining a power-abusing vindictive idiot in a robe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    LoneStarGal likes this.
  17. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Because judge Sullivan is dragging this way beyond reason into the next administration. The costs for all of this is huge. Enough of the political harassment. The case was dropped. What is Sullivan doing? Do you ever ask why?
     
    Thought Criminal likes this.
  18. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    13,479
    Likes Received:
    16,550
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here is an article with a (partial) list of historical U.S. Presidential pardons. Good luck if you can make any rhyme or reason of why some folks get pardoned. Sometimes you just have to know the right people. ;)

    https://justthenews.com/nation/crime/flynn-nixon-rich-controversial-history-presidential-pardons
     
    LogNDog likes this.
  19. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So...Flynn is guilty to save money? LMFAO. Think.

    Sullivan is in charge of the case. That you don't like his handling of it is irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  20. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No fair person could say what he did is not biased.
     
  21. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2015
    Messages:
    13,326
    Likes Received:
    5,890
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No case had ever been dropped in the sentencing phase after a guilty plea. What Sullivan did was fight bias. What he did was preserve fairness.
     
  22. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    928
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you, reading the article explains the original idea, I can understand why pardoning the confederate soldiers made sense for example, it appears to me with a none bias view that later pardons where political (on both sides) and the original spirt has been lost.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    LoneStarGal likes this.
  23. God & Country

    God & Country Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    2,834
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A presidential pardon is something reserved mostly for things that involve injustice. In the case of Michael Flynn it is more than appropriate. Flynn was the victim of a Democrat ploy that involved entrapment and coercion. The Democrats recruited the FBI to ensnare Flynn by pretense and then coerce him to bear false witness against the president. In spite of the fact that this all came to light, the Democrats continued to promote this false narrative. The Democrats enlisted a number of judges to perpetuate this fiction. So Flynn's reputation was trampled, his family put through hell and was bankrupted by legal costs. I think Flynn should sue the Democrats for compensation.
     
    Thought Criminal likes this.
  24. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    16,708
    Likes Received:
    12,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Its a check against the bureacracy of the justice system. No system of law is perfect, and there will innevitably be situations where a righteous action is also an illegal and/or unlawful action. The Presidential power of pardon is one way by which these situtions can potentially be corrected.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  25. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    97,286
    Likes Received:
    27,225
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Because Flynn got counsel that did not have a conflict of interest and exculpatory evidence illegally withheld by the FBI surfaced.
     

Share This Page