Progressive Christians

That is where reason, facts, and history come in. Simple claims or assertions do not supercede the facts of history, and textual accuracy.
The Truth is there, for those who wish to seek it. The pure, unchanged, clear message that Jesus brought is as powerful and life changing today, as when He first spoke.

In the same way, the historical, original, and foundational truths that are the basis for Christianity are unchanged, and are there for anyone's examination.

 

Right, Dems concern for those in need doesn't extend to 9 month old unborn babies. I'd say Trump helps minorities, given black and hispanic unemployment the lowest ever.

 

Hey, preach to your own!

I'm not the one who splintered Christianity into numerous divisions that disagree with each other.

 

You're wrong about that. Everyone in the US wants fewer abortions.

Absolutely everyone.

 

I'm not preaching to anyone. ..just relaying the facts, and people can make up their own minds.

The fact is, Christianity has an exact, historical, precise definition, layed out by the Founder. There are millennia of manuscripts and history that support this fact.

And, there have beem multiple departures.. hybrids, offshoots, bastardizations, and contradictions from the Original. But just as the presence of lies does not negate the truth, so the preponderance of departures does not invalidate the Original.

IF... there is One True God,
AND IF... this God has communicated to man by becoming a man, Himself,
THEN.. this FACT of history could be handed down to subsequent generations.

This is, in fact, what happened.

Whether people believe it, or not, is something else. But the clear, historic, unpolluted Message that the God/man Jesus brought to humanity has been preserved and delivered to each generation, since He first walked this earth.

 

These were from another thread, about a singular, exact definition of Christianity.

 

What denominations fit your criteria?

 

The nature of Jesusa is a (or the) key differentiator between Cristianiity and other religions.

That was part of what was formulated over the few hundred years after his death as Christianity was created.

But, there remain other significant issues upon which Christian denominations don't agree - even including requirements on individuals.

 

I don't know what all 'denominations!' believe. IMO, they are irrelevant. No denomination can be saved, as it is a soulless organization. There exists, in this world, individual souls who are the chosen of God. They have saving faith, not any institution of man.

Right. Except that it was 'formulated' at the instant of His death. The Transaction was made. The debt paid. The redeemed were purchased.

But as far as 'extraneous' issues, yes, they have come (and gone), over the millennia. There is a core set of essentials, in Christian orthodoxy. And there is a historical list of heresies, or departures from that orthodoxy. And also, there is a growing list of 'add ons', or superflous items that man has added in his pursuit of money, fame, significance, or whatever.

Some of the add ons may be innocuous. Some may be heresies. But the core elements of Christianity have remained constant for over 2000 years. Creeds and statements of faith have defined and clarified those core elements, so modern followers of Jesus can know they are on the right path, and have not been bewitched by some 'New! Improved!' version.

 

Well, Christianity wasn't defined at the death of Jesus. It was defined over a period of a couple of hundred years following that as it was determined what would be considered orthodoxy, what would be in or out of the Bible, etc. That included such elements as working out the concept of a tripartite god. Naturally, any answer to such issues would be considered "original". Presenting it as a "new idea" would be ridiculous.

As for "new! Improved!" in more modern times, I would point to Protestantism as one example. Plus, there are various arguments concerning salvation and its relationship to works, baptism, etc.

 

Dogma minus works exposes heresy. Pope Francis questioned if Trump was a Christian based on lack of spiritual growth/ Godly living/ responsibility.

 

Interesting way of looking at it. I think in all denominations works has to play an important role.

It may not be that works are required to get to heaven.

But, it seems reasonable that "evil" works could negate ones own salvation. Was it really a conversion if it leads to no discernable change?

 

This is where Martin Luther helped clarify justification by faith. One does not deserve heaven through mere works [ie. tithing/ indulgences]. It is God working through the individual that creates good works.

 

This is inaccurate. Christianity, as an event, worldview, or belief system BEGAN the hour the God/man Jesus uttered, 'It is finished!' on the cross. The transaction was completed. The price paid. The redeemed purchased. All partakers of this Divine Favor were then, 'Christians', even before the term was coined.

The bible, as a guide, or record of this transaction, was to keep the message pure. A written record was needed to correct, and prevent destructive heresies from corrupting the Message.

The earliest Christians, immediately after Christ's death and resurrection, knew the Man, and delivered His message with fearless conviction, even to their own death. But as distortions and heresies threatened to destroy the clarity and purity of the Message, many wrote down and recorded the words and actions of this Man, so as to preserve them for posterity.

Subsequent councils recognized the writings that were in use by the various churches, as well as the heretical distortions injected into some of them. Parameters were established, and decisions were made, regarding what writings should be included into the canon of scripture. The Bible was defined.

But Christianity was already sweeping the civilized world, and would go on to where we are today. Man made institutions were organized, and have not always been a positive for sound Christian doctrine. But the ESSENCE of Christianity, the Mission and Message of Christ, has not changed, nor have any corrective or corruptive influences diminished the power and significance of this message. Today, as from the beginning, the Power of God flows through the message of Redemption, giving life, peace, and hope to all who receive it.

 

All aspects of Christianity are taking hits and there has to be a reason for that to happen. Christianity is growing slower than the population rate and that growth exists primarily in less developed nations.

The significant drops are occurring in the western nations and in America in particular.

The better educated the population the less the need for superstitious beliefs and, most importantly, the less RELEVANCE those superstitions play in modern life.

The instances of abuse have ALWAYS been there. The difference is that now that abuse has become common knowledge through the advent of the internet.

And therein lies the core failure of religion. The ability of the Catholic Church to CONTROL KNOWLEDGE was broken when the bible became readily available to all via the Gutenberg printing invention. The subsequent splintering into multiple denominations is documented and does not need rehashing. All that needs to be noted is that as people had the opportunity to read for themselves the less they were willing to accept what was in the bible.

Today the fastest growing "religion" in the world is secularism.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

Christianity essentially has a messaging relevance problem and a bad odor associated with the abuse. It needs to address BOTH of those problems if it wants to continue to be part of people's lives.

 

I agree with much of your analysis, but have a different perspective on the causes.

1. The printing press opened up the bible to many more, as well as growing literacy, after the reformation. Christianity exploded in the world, after those events, which Christians authored:

• Printing
• Literacy
• Reason
• Science

These were opposed by the ruling elite, who wanted to censor and control all information.. as they do today.
2. 'Reading the Bible' was at least a partial cause, of the reformation, AND the age of Enlightenment and reason.
3. Banning and censoring the bible, and its message, have been the tactics of atheistic naturalism, a competing worldview.
4. Communist countries, and other progressive/socialist dominated nations have had the most success in promoting secular humanism, and diminishing Christianity, through censorship and propaganda.
5. I conclude that 'not reading!' the bible is the cause of decline. 'Reading!' the bible has had, historically, the opposite effect.
6. Christianity as a declining influence in the socio/cultural basis of western civilization, has been primarily from the competing religion of progressive secular humanism. Censoring, banning, and propaganda caricatures have dealt the blow to Christianity's growth, not anything inherent in the message.

 

Wrong!

The Ancient Greeks were the western origins of Literacy, Reason and Science long before Christianity was around. Amongst their ancient writings we have evidence that Atheism PREDATES Christianity. Furthermore it was Islam that promoted the Sciences and brought them to Europe via Spain.

The Church did a great deal of editing and censoring of the bible to the point where there is no reason to believe it has much in common, if anything at all, to do with what MIGHT have transpired in Israel 2000 years ago.

Deflecting to communism duly noted and ignored since it is an attempt to derail the thread.

Lastly thank you for tacitly conceding that Christianity is incapable of competing on it's own merits with secular humanism which underlie the founding principles of our nation. That says a lot about WHY Christianity is in decline for being irrelevant to the lives of people in civilized western nations.

 

Astute assessment supported by studies/ polls on the future of Christianity. The established/ institutional Church is dying quite frankly. Many of the great cathedrals in Europe are maintained by the government as museums of religious art. Poor attendance at worship services and mostly elderly folks. I don't know the answer but some posters have pointed out that small groups of Christians gather informally. Clergy are becoming family therapists/ community workers.

 

Sure, but my point was the other way around.

I was asking whether there was a conversion if the result shows no improvement in works.

Another version might be whether there are works that would result in God rejecting even a totally honest conversion.

Let's say Hitler had converted in 1930. What would be the logic that God would apply (ignoring the issue of suicide)?

There certainly are statements in the NT emphasizing faith, not works as the path to heaven.

But, I don't see the Bible saying that after a conversion event there is no possible path to hell through works or loss of faith.

In fact, we know from the words of Jesus on the cross that God will reject even Jesus, as he takes on the burden of human sin - something I think should raise more questions than it seems to raise.

 

The fact that there was a date for the crucifiction doesn't mean that was the day of full understanding of Christianity.

Those are two different things.

 

This article in today's LAT expresses many of the same feelings I have of the Catholic church. The profundity of the "glass confessional" particularly impressed me. Comments are welcomed.

"Why I am still a Catholic — and why that becomes more difficult every day" https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-...lic-church-priest-scandal-20190303-story.html

". . . I’ve held on to the hope that the crisis would somehow open up the possibility of a profound conversation about the church’s identity — including priestly celibacy, gender and sexual orientation. Indeed, there were hints at the beginning of Francis’ papacy that such a dialogue could take place"

"The day of class, we met at the Laband Art Gallery on campus to see an exhibit titled “Confess” by the Irish artist Trina McKillen. The centerpiece of the show is a confessional made mostly of glass, behind which nothing can be hidden, nothing kept secret. The roles of confessor and penitent are reversed, too: The abusing priest is meant to kneel on a hassock of nails and ask forgiveness from a child survivor sitting on a white chair. It is a startling image that somehow conveys the hope that there may yet be a full accounting, perhaps even a healing to the trauma of generations."

 

So you say, but I believe the Trinity theory was a 4th century concept. Of course you can prove me wrong with a NT citation.

 

Speaking of the pure, unchanged, clear message of Jesus -- do you understand that an original (not a copy) Bible does not exist?

 

Did he say "it is finished" or did he say "Father forgive them...?"

You say the earliest Christians knew the man, yet Paul (who created Christianity) never met Jesus nor heard him speak.

Yes. Christianity was sweeping the "civilized" (by which you mean white) world. The Romans had brain surgery (albeit primitive), running water, and other technology. Then Christianity and the Catholic church led to the dark ages.

 

Frankly, that view is skewed. He taught doing things from kindness in a voluntary manner, Progressives have such good ideas they are mandatory and use law to force the unwilling to finance those ideas.