Project Gunrunner (Fast & Furious) Part II

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by onalandline, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I said that F & F was going to be used to make the case for more gun control. I never said that it was the only intent, however, there really is no other purpose that I can see since these guns disappeared into Mexico, without the Mexican authorities knowing about them, essentially untraceable by U.S. authorities, until they conveniently turned up in crime scenes, then traced back to U.S. dealers. How convenient.

    I have manufactured nothing. It is manifesting itself.

    It is no secret that the Obama Administration is not a friend of the Second Amendment.
     
  2. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He just mis-stated what he meant then. We all know that guns were not sold directly by U.S. agents.

    Also, my conclusion about F & F is far from false.
     
  3. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMcggyvYtYU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMcggyvYtYU[/ame]
     
  4. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The belief that Fast and Furious was initiated for the purpose of gun control is obviously false but it doesn't imply that it isn't being used for that purpose today. Of course I only see it as an argument for gun control being imposed on the ATF which screwed up the operation and facilitated the illegal transfer of firearms to drug cartels. Why isn't anyone in the ATF being prosecuted for violation of the laws that were committed in F&F is my question? Is there any doubt that they facilitated the illegal transfer of firearms to drug cartels in Mexico? These cartels certainly didn't receive these firearms through any legal means.
     
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  5. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    You're only going from one baseless charge to the next. Hardly a good way to make an argument.

    You had stated that: "Obama knew more than you think", and then posted a source that did NOT substantiate your charge. Not even close. Now when shown this reality, you now chose to divert from this glaring weakness by making another baseless charge that out President dislikes our Constitution.

    Where will this silliness stop?

    It is very clear that your ideology drives your views at the expense of the facts.
     
  6. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    He might have "mis-stated what he meant", or he might have actually made an error as to the facts of this case. I can only conclude his intent from what he actually wrote, and it is erroneous.





    A valid conclusion needs valid evidence. Your conclusion does not have this and its absence is glaring.
     
  7. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Banned

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    Democrats are anti-2A .:gun:
     
  8. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    This is more appeal to emotion propaganda from the NRA and a right winger named Kuhner. It looks as though you have already made up your mind as to this, and are now trying to find evidence that will support it. Kind of a backwards and irrational manner of forming a position I must say.
     
  9. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    By whom exactly?






    If there was any malfeasance, then those responsible should be prosecuted. That much I agree, however to jump to the call for prosecutions for everyone up to the President without any evidence is simply wrong and un-American. It flies in the face of our Constitution and our Rule Of Law. We as yet do not know the full story of what happened and there might well be valid answers to many of our questions as to this. The point is that we don't know.
     
  10. Stern Wheeler

    Stern Wheeler Member

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    Richard Nixon went down for less.

    Obama and Eric "I Heart Marc Rich" Holder will get their comeuppance in about 43 weeks; or, hopefully, less...
     
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  11. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, only your refusal to put two and two together.
     
  12. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have been convinced of my accusations. You, however, just refuse to see the truth unfolding right before your eyes. I bet you would be totally different if George W. Bush was the President.
     
  13. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is the Obama Administration and the Justice Department that are stalling the investigation by outright lying and trying to hush this entire thing. The NRA is reporting the facts based on FOIA requests and congressional testimony.
     
  14. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  15. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    Sorry, but you can't change logic to fit your own agendas, friend. A valid conclusion still needs valid evidence, and no matter how much you stamp your foot in denial of this simple fact, this will always be a constant truth.
     
  16. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    You mean that I myself might be as biased and hateful towards Bush if he were in a similar situation? Really?

    Is this how you want to justify your position?

    Amazing.
     
  17. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    We have a clear case of federal agents engaging in illegal activity that resulted in guns being illegally transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. I certainly agree that only those that were directly involved in this activity should be held accountable. I seriously doubt that the President was complicit but if the evidence were to show that he was then I believe it could be agreed that he should be prosecuted as well.

    No one should be above the law including the President.
     
  18. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ...and you still have to put two and two together.
     
  19. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlS01bEwLbM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlS01bEwLbM[/ame]
     
  20. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    Sorry, but you can't change logic to fit your own agendas, friend. A valid conclusion still needs valid evidence, and no matter how much you stamp your foot in denial of this simple fact, this will always be a constant truth.
     
  21. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ...and for most people, the evidence is and has been presenting itself.
     
  22. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fast and Furious: Mystery of the White Guns

    Has yet another "gun walking" operation been uncovered?


    The House Oversight committee is looking into yet another Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms operation in which, as a source told the L.A. Times, “apparently guns got away again.” Hopefully the Bureau doesn’t lose track of alcohol and tobacco as often as they let firearms “get away” from them, or we’ll be looking at the kind of public health crisis the White House actually cares about.

    The operation currently on the desks of “gun walking” investigators Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) was called Operation White Gun. Despite the odd code name, it had nothing to do with cracking down on heavily armed white supremacists. It was all about arming the Sinaloa cartel, the same murderous Mexican gang who got all those guns from Operation Fast and Furious.

    Operation White Gun was supposedly more like a normal sting operation, where Fast and Furious simply threw 1,700 American guns across the border, without any real attempt to track them. As the L.A. Times recounts it:

    According to documents that the ATF sent to the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Forces, an umbrella group of U.S. agencies that seeks to disrupt major drug trafficking and money laundering, White Gun targeted nine leaders of the Sinaloa cartel. The list included Joaquin "Chapo" Guzman, who heads the cartel and is Mexico's most wanted drug suspect.

    In ATF reports, MacAllister wrote that U.S. intelligence showed cartel members were setting up military-type training camps in the Sierra de Durango mountains, near Guzman's northern Mexico hide-out, and wanted to bolster their arsenal with grenade launchers and .50-caliber machine guns.

    The agents focused first on Vicente Fernando Guzman Patino, a cartel insider who was identified as one of their weapons purchasers and who often used code words and phrases, saying "57" for "OK," for instance.

    In fall 2009, the ATF team sent an undercover agent posing as an arms dealer to Guzman Patino. Photos of weapons, including a Dragon Fire 120-millimeter heavy mortar, were emailed to his "Superman6950" Hotmail account.

    According to the ATF documents, Guzman Patino told the undercover agent that "if he would bring them a tank, they would buy it." He boasted he had "$15 million to spend on firearms and not to worry about the money." He wanted "the biggest and most extravagant firearms available."

    Well of course you’re not going to get a tank, Mr. Patino. U.S. politicians aren't interested in pushing any tank-control legislation.

    The upshot of this little email exchange between the undercover ATF agent and the gun-happy Sinaloa quartermaster was a classic crime-drama meet outside a restaurant in Phoenix, where the ATF man popped open his trunk and showed the delighted Patino a stockpile of weapons, including “a Bushmaster rifle and a Ramo .50 heavy machine gun.” And then…

    … well, we don’t know what happened next. The investigation suddenly ended. No documentation unearthed so far confirms whether Patino got any White Gun weapons or not.
    Some lower-level stooges got busted by the same undercover agent after they tried to trade crystal meth for shoulder-launched missiles, but none of the cartel bigwigs targeted by White Gun seem to have been taken down in the operation.

    ATF agent Hope McAllister, a leader in the Operation Fast and Furious disaster, reportedly spent some time in Mexico during the summer of 2010 looking for White Gun weapons among the ordnance seized from cartel killers by the Mexican government. That behavior is not consistent with a tightly-controlled sting operation run by people who know exactly where all the contraband merchandise went. “Sooooo… you guys wouldn’t happen to have seized any of the guns on this list, would you? No? Oh, well, just thought I’d ask. Adios!”

    This is all very strange, because usually the Obama Justice Department is so meticulous with its paperwork, and so eager to show it off to congressional investigators and the public. The L.A. Times’ source inside the investigation said of the White Guns, “How many got into Mexico? Who knows?” I’ll bet the answer to that question, at least initially, will not be “Attorney General Eric Holder.”

    Source
     
  23. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    Well, I'm well aware that YOU are convinced, but I have already shown you how the conclusion that you want is not supported by factual evidence. The internet is wide and diverse. You will always be able to find like-minded fanatics willing to fore-go reason and logic to support their agenda. This does not surprise me at all.
     
  24. onalandline

    onalandline Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have shown me that you oppose everything I say. That doesn't surprise me anymore. I have seen enough evidence to support what I believe. There may never be a smoking gun. The one sure thing is that the Obama Administration is doing all it can to stall the F&F investigation.
     
  25. Danct

    Danct New Member

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    No, you have the wrong impression, friend. I have nothing against you and am not singling you out in any fashion. What I am opposed to, and which you seem to have been guilty of lately is a disregard for factual evidence in favor of biased ideology. You have put yourself in these positions repeatedly here and have been resistant to reflecting rationally on this. I understand how you get most of your information via FOX News and the NRA, but would encourage you to allow for a more broad knowledge base to help you avoid these traps.
     

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