Proof that Illegals Are Not Taking Jobs From Americans...

If illegals or those with green card status can learn these trades in a few days...they are not skilled.

How do you know that all the workers you suspect of being illegal are actually illegal?

If all of those trade jobs you talk about are being filled with green card workers...would this be acceptable to you?

 

I'm with you on this.
I don't agree with this concept that drywallers and other occupations like that should make bottom of the barrel wages.

It's elitist for one group of Americans to decide they can see to it that other Americans employed in trades should be challenged with 3rd world wage pressures.

Start telling that to all the low skill government workers making overblown wages or some teacher making 100k teaching how to add fractions as if that's a skill you need years to learn.

Why would any American want other Americans displaced by illegals or have their wages driven down because they are pompous enough to see themselves as having an important occupation?

Replace all the high paid government do-nothings working jobs at DVMs across the country. Replace all the high paid meter maids with illegals.

Then these liberals will soon be singing a new tune.

 

No, it's elitist to assume that Americans are any more deserving of the high wages we make than any other human beings, simply because our mothers pushed us out on the right side of an imaginary line on the earth.

 

First...the above IS NOT a quote from Oldmanonfire!

 

I did say skilled or unskilled in my statement. Construction used to be good paying jobs and Americans used to predominate the industry. No more.

How do you know they are not? Personally, I think we should profile them and check their status if all they can speak is Mexican.

If they are legal, no problem.

 

The premise of this thread is so stupid. Any ONE job that an illegal aliens takes is ONE job a REAL AMERICAN doesn't have. Why in the world does anyone care about people that are here illegally? It just doesn't make any sense. You should feel betrayed.

 

But wait I thought people were too lazy too work?? But now you admit that people are realistically being undermined, short changed, due to the fact that the job market is being flooded with an illegal work force that accepts less than they can realistically live on, because they know they can get the rest of the money from the government, even the illegal one's.
　
　
How convenient.
　
　
First off nobody in the USA in the bottom 80% have the power to negotiate realistic wages, they are set and established to benefit the employer not the employee, rather than mutually beneficial. You purposely pay less, because you have the leverage, and all the advantages in your favor. If not for the illegal flooding of the market, employees might be better equipped to at least negotiate wages that do not make them automatically eligible for welfare/government subsidies to supplement the poverty wages employers know they can get away with paying.
　
　
The irony is these are the same people complaining about their taxes going up. Well if you are a company that pays slave wages and your employees have to seek additional income from the government, you "shouldn't" be getting tax breaks since you are doing absolutely nothing to lessen the burden on the government. You should also be charged the balance of what ever the government is making up to cover your employees cost, logically from the profits you are cheating your employees (and your fellow tax payers) out of.
　
　
You pay slave wages to benefit yourself, and offer a job(s) that pays enough to put another human being on the welfare roll. You are the problem with the economy. Starving out a whole class of people and making the working class another recipient of the government charity class is completely unrealistic.
　
　
No competition means no capitalism, and that is required in costs, materials, wages/salaries, prices, etc... etc... for capitalism to work. We as a society are becoming more fascist (only it’s corporate owned government rather than government owned corporate, is there a word for that??) than we are capitalistic any more.

 

Please explain to me why REAL AMERICANS are not at the local labor hall signing up to work in the farm fields?

Why do we care about these people? Well I care about them because they are the ONLY people who will work in the farm fields. I also care about them because the USA purposely allows these people to work and pay taxes many times for years or decades and this sets a precedent.

Do you actually believe all your 'stupid' talk is going to provide any solutions...

 

Why wasn't he deported after the 2nd DUI?...

Homeland Security withholds probe into illegal alien drunk driver who killed nun
Tuesday, October 12, 2010; Despite two drunken driving convictions, he was not deported before crash that killed nun

See also:

Illegal immigrants draft legal plans in case of deportation
12 Oct.`10 - Illegal immigrants nervous about stronger enforcement have started drawing up legal documents to spell out what they want to happen to their families and belongings if they are deported.

 

Wake up Man on Fire, the US worker is not your enemy!!

In about 40 years we went from a society where 1 adult could “control” a household with their pay, put back money for vacations, save for college for their children, and pay their doctor bills for the most part right out of their pockets. This is when capitalism actually worked, businesses were competing and there were numerous businesses to choose from, and wages were more comparable to the “cost of living” in the environment that you worked in. Now the average family unit has both adults working and many of them are working more than 2 jobs each, to make ends meet, in this increasing “cost of living“ environment. Looking at these numbers, the average wage earner in 30 years will have to have 6-8 jobs (at least 2 full time), which is a mathematical impossibility, since there are not that many hours in a week.
　
　
　
40 years ago the CEO’s/CFO’s made around 20 times that of the average wage earner in this country. Today they make over 400 times that of an average wage earner, who is working more jobs than they had to in 1965.
　
　
How do you suppose their salaries went up at such a faster, more dramatic rate than the workers? Because there is an abundance of workers, and they are and have been easily taken advantage of, and for the most part these monopolized industries that still utilize the peasants help here in this country use that advantage to take the wages they believe they deserve at such a higher rate than the undeserving peasants AKA unskilled labor force/average wage earner.
　
　
The average wage earner made around $47,000 according to the government stats, and the top 25 executives who pretty much own the government, made enough to pay over 20,000 salaries that are higher than the average wage earners income. This at a time when we have more people than ever before “working” and eligible for welfare and/or government subsidies.
　
　
This is the result of a 40 year orchestrated dismantling of a stabilized economy environment of competitiveness that controlled the costs of doing business, incomes both at the top and the bottom, and a cost of living that was much more realistic, and comparable to the budget of an average income earner.
　
　
The first step was the elimination of the mom & pop (small business) economy, and destroy Main Street America. With that came the first surge of outsourcing which brings us to one of the most successful bait and switch campaigns ever inflicted on the American wage earner.
　
　
Step two was all about the Made in America scam. As major corporations were becoming more and more powerful with the competition dwindling faster than a candle in a blast oven, they sold America on the catchy slogan, while they were involved in some of the biggest hostile takeovers in the US history. The dismantling of these larger (mom & pop) companies took another big chunk of the competition out of play, and the equipment that wasn’t out and out destroyed, was shipped away with the jobs that the average wage earner used to fill.
　
　
Then came the banking/savings and loans scams, real estate fraud, credit card loan sharking, and of course the bogus wars, while handing out government contracts to selective corporate entities. None of this organized criminal activity has anybody been found accountable for, since most of the people involved are either in the government or own the government. Our government is so intertwined with key corporate entities that monopolize entire industries it reaches the level of having an obvious conflict of interest to blatant misuse of power, they continue to run interference creating legislation that destroys the little guy and rewards their real bosses, and you sit there with a straight face and say that the American wage earner isn’t being undermined or taken advantage of??
　
　
Now that is unbelievable.
　
　
　
Just because you have a part time seasonal job or two, and you can’t find anybody who wants to work for you, and yes maybe it’s just you, you believe that proves that illegal aliens are not stealing American jobs (???), and disrupting the ability to negotiate a livable wage that actually represents an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay.
　
　
Unless competitive environment is restored and government interference is eliminated, the rich/elite will destroy this country to it’s core.

 

@Bucknaked While I'm aware people are less likely to respond to posters who don't say that their positions are wholy without merit, I did have a reply to you a while back, and was interested in your response
http://www.politicalforum.com/3018400-post40.html

Anyway some of that spurred me to look into unskilled wages. It seemed like something might be up. For example I recalled reading that part of the the reason the North did so well without slavery, was that they discovered that the cost of paying an unskilled worker was less than the cost associated with buying and keeping a slave. That doesn't sound like big bucks to me.

I poked around a bit and found:
http://eh.net/databases/unskilledwage/ (overal link at bottom of page).
They don't adjust for inflation, so I'd compare dates against:
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

What I found was that there was a peak in wages in the 70s. They've gone down since then some, but they were much lower, even when adjusted for inflation, in times past. Particularily at seemingly all times prior to the conclusion of WWII.

The numbers indicate that you might be seeing the 70s in an overly rosey light, possibly simply because you may have been doing better than the average menial laborer. But also that maybe that period of history between the end of WWII to the peak in the 70s was roughly a thirty year anomaly in wages corresponding with being the "king of the world" as a nation.

On a side note, many women these days (and quite a few I know) don't make much more at their jobs after taxes and such, than the cost of daycare for their children. It's just that they'd rather work than take care of a kid all day. Also I do believe hosues are on average significantly larger and less likely to contain multiple families or generations these days, and medical costs are vastly different as you go from a guy with a stethescope and some penicillin to massive gamma ray scalples today.

　
　
　
　

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ"]YouTube - Immigration Gumballs[/ame]

 

Sunnyside;

　
　
Yes, work is considered unworthy these days and back then you got paid more especially when the work was harder. It was nothing for a helper on a construction site to make $6.50 an hour, when minimum wage was a dollar something, to build a $30,000.00 home, while it is almost impossible today to get a job as a helper for more than $6.50 an hour (or whatever the minimum wage is now) to help build a house that is considered 5 times the value it was then. So logically due to the rise in the cost/value of the home so should have the value of the work increased. It didn't /doesn't work that way any more. Unfortunately illegal’s have completely destroyed the work market, and allow the builders to cheat the employees out of a decent livable wage from the profits their work creates. In most cases in Az, NM, Texas, the illegal’s are making less than the minimum and many only making $20-25 a day, for difficult labor positions (concrete, mason work, roofing, etc....)
　
　

　
Just to clear up any confusion I am not a high school dropout. And yes if work is considered demeaning and not worthy of an honest days pay for an honest days work, something is fundamentally wrong with the system.
　
　

　
　
The government wouldn’t pad those numbers a bit, eh?
　
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/education/jan-june06/dropout_06-27.html
　
　

　


With major school districts in this country with dropout rates that exceed 50% I tend to go along with the 1 in 3 graduate.
　
　
　

　
　
I used to make that same mistake, middle class and median income is not the same thing. The middle class these days is not the working class but the professional class or the lower upper class.

 

Not blaming anybody, just looking at the cause and effects that have diminished the ability of the working class to obtain a decent livable wage, and once again you come to the same conclusion, I just fill in the dirty little details Man on Fire.


This we both understand and agree on.

Don't know what your definition of capitalism is but that isn't the definition we learned in school when I was growing up. Capitalism is supposed to be beneficial to everyone involved. Modern capitalism/cronyism is not capitalism. Monopolized conglomerates that own the public officials and use them to do their bidding is not capitalism.

Mostly because there is no alternative, and just how many mom & pop businesses were built by the US taxpayers to deliberately drive their competition out of business? Wallyworld was a big business when it had to depend on it's ability to be competitive, once the government helped them eliminate that small hurdle their competition has been eliminated by government interference.

 

I kept poking around a bit and found
http://www.tcf.org/Publications/EconomicsInequality/GoingNowhereRC.pdf

They've got some good info. (And I think you'd like the paper).

However it shows two things.

The first is that inflation adjusted wages have dropped for the laborers, but that they are somewhat stable now but that level is just back down to what it was back in 1960 (and from my other figures, that amount is drastically higher than pre-WWII wages).

In short you worked at the peak of unskilled labor. A brief time when menial labor in the US was rewarded, relatively,with better pay than it ever had in the history of mankind and probably more than it will ever recieve in the future.
　
The second is that your experiences are fluky. The wages you cite then are way way high, and the wages you cite now are low. I'm not sure what to make of this if you are correct. My best guess is that the discrepancy is due to averaging things out. Perhaps in the 70s unskilled construction workers did recieve grand wages, but janitors, assembly line workers, busboys and such didn't, and so it averages out. I suppose it was the civil rights era. So maybe the whites were getting paid piles, but the blacks got peanuts and it averaged out.


And maybe now due to the language barrier, perhaps illegal immegration has selectively devestated construction and seasonal agri jobs while leaving cashiers and other drop out "careers" unscathed.

　
　

Actually from your article it looks like people actually agree on the general numbers. What they disagree on is what should count. Specifically do you count people who drop back in, get held back a time or two before graduating, or who get GEDs. 　
　
　

Yes, the middle class is the professional class. That's what it's always been really, even if the working class had it good for a while. The question then is how large is the professional class and how are they doing? The answer currently seems to be "pretty big and pretty well".

 

I've been in Corn Detasseling for 10 years (3 weeks every Summer), it's back breaking and a tiring job...average day sees you walking 20 miles in total and for the last 4 seasons I've been responsible for about 20 kids..a good majority just don't wanna work, fat kids never last more than 3 days
this is Canada

Just imagine the U.S.A now, with the U.S's Obesity problem...I don't see how they could be doing this kind of labour work, I'm not saying Americans aren't hard workers, they probably are

but lets be honest, the two are interconected

 

Obesity is certainly an issue but it's not confined to the USA. It seems that during the past 20-30 years, surely for myriad reasons, many of us believe certain types of work are beneath us. I'm not sure this is just about the low wage because many who won't do this work are young unskilled kids who can't earn much more than minimum wage anyway. Some say just raise the wages and Americans will show up. But...this cannot possibly be an answer because too many people are willing to work for current wages.