Proof that Illegals Are Not Taking Jobs From Americans...

Discussion in 'Immigration' started by OldManOnFire, Sep 28, 2010.

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  1. Clay

    Clay New Member

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    There are many on here who think that you're just pretending to be a farmer to give some credibility to your amnesty peddling. And frankly if your so called farm can't survive without illegal mexicans, then go out of business. Maybe your so called farm could mechanize itself? Plant crops that can be mechanically harvested. And then lastly, isn't it true that the so call white "bread" Americans you talk about just don't want to work alongside that bunch of ignorant stinking non English speaking mexicans that you apparantly hire on your so called farm?
     
  2. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This will be my last post to you:

    It is people like you, with your ignorant and disrespectful and self-serving behavior, who do more harm to the USA than 20 million illegal immgrants have ever done!

    You're a bigot! You're xenophobic! You are an embarrassment to the USA...
     
  3. Clay

    Clay New Member

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    You amnesty peddlers crack me up. << laughs out loud >> Your cover as a fake farmer amnesty peddler gets blown and you start whining. I do more harm to the US than 20 million unwanted uninvited illegal alien future democratic voters? << laughs out loud again>> Calling me a bigot, xenophobic, and an embarrassment to the US is right out of the marxist/socialist amnesty peddler handbook.
     
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Illegals: Will They Be Taking Jobs Away From U.S. Citizens?

    The Economics of the Illegal to Legal Plan Shouldn't Have a Negative Impact, Say Economists

    With the announcement from Washington on
    Thursday of a possible compromise bill that would
    allow millions of illegal immigrants in the United
    States to become legal and start the process to
    become citizens, ABC News spoke with several
    economists about the potential economic impact of
    this plan.

    For the most part, the consensus was that "most of the
    impact is already there" as Giovanni Peri, a economics
    professor at the University of California in Davis,
    described it.

    The perception that millions of undocumented
    immigrants working as busboys, maids and day
    laborers at construction sites earn substandard
    wages is largely inaccurate.


    In the United States "labor markets are competitive
    enough that it's difficult to find evidence that illegal
    immigrants have been getting paid less than minimum
    wage," Pia Orrenius, a senior economist at the Federal
    Reserve Bank of Dallas who studies labor and
    immigration, told ABC News.

    David Card, a labor economics professor at the
    University of California in Berkeley, agreed.
    Immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American
    countries are not crossing the border for minimum
    wage jobs, but search for high wages -- $10 an hour
    for example -- working in construction or in the
    agricultural industry.


    "Relatively few employers are paying below the
    minimum wage,"
    he said. "For most, there is some
    'don't ask don't tell.' They have some sort of
    document [from the immigrant] and they are hiring on
    the presumption the document is valid."

    And while some believe these undocumented workers
    are taking away jobs from legal citizens, economists
    disagree.
    They say the demand for low wages workers
    is strong in this country and that the debate among
    economists focuses on whether or not these illegal
    workers depress the wages for these sorts of jobs.

    "Being legal or illegal doesn't make a big difference in
    wages,"
    concluded Peri. He said there have been a few
    studies examining the issue and that "the most important
    determinate of wages are skills, occupation,
    time in the job, experience in the country, level of
    English." "If experience is any guide," said Gordon
    Hanson, director of the Center on Pacific Economies
    at the University of California in San Diego, "you saw
    some bump up in wages for workers who were
    legalized. But the evidence doesn't suggest these
    workers have more bargaining power, that suddenly
    legalization treats you better. It means you are more
    mobile and you can take advantage of new
    opportunities that come along that you would be
    reluctant to with illegal status."

    One impact that could be felt years from now will be
    to the nation's social service programs such as
    education, Medicare and welfare.

    "Looking 10 years down the line," said Hanson, "this
    is what I view as big flaw in immigration reform. It
    doesn't address the fiscal costs."

    Others believe this impact could be balanced by an
    increase in taxes that would be paid by these now
    legalized workers.

    So while the legalization would be a huge change in
    the lives of the millions of undocumented immigrants
    currently in this country, economists believe the
    short-term economic impact will be limited.

    "You can legalize, but the fundamentals of their
    employment won't change," said Orrenius. "They will
    be in same job."


    Reference:
    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=3189288&page=2
     
  5. Whale

    Whale Banned

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    I'm still looking for this proof that illegals are not taking jobs.

    444 posts and no proof yet.
     
  6. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    There have never been any white boy Americans at the job banks in my area signing up to do farm labor...never.

    This is proof in my world...maybe you just need to open your eyes and mind...
     
  7. Rainbowseer

    Rainbowseer New Member

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    1. Migrant farmer workers are not necessarily illegal.

    2. Not all illegals work as migrant farm workers.

    Illegals do take many construction jobs in where I live and it is difficult for non-"bilinguals" to get jobs in the construction business. It is also required to speak Spanish in many kitchen jobs, many call center jobs, sales jobs, etc.

    Also last week I went to a retail store to buy clothing, I asked a clerk where I might find a certain item and she was unable to assist me because she spoke no English. This was a retail chain.
     
  8. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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  9. ZX10kawi

    ZX10kawi New Member Past Donor

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    I've seen(first hand) illegals working in manufacturing facilities. It's you who needs to open his eyes. Why don't you go talk to some contractors in construction,preferably ones that travel the country. You talk to enough of them and you'll be set straight about whether or not illegals are taking jobs away from americans and depressing the wages of others.
     
  10. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    First, how do you actually know who is legal and who is not?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/business/yourmoney/03view.html?pagewanted=1

    Shattering Stereotypes About Immigrant Workers

    By DANIEL ALTMAN

    AS immigration legislation slowly makes its way through Congress, the debate about illegal immigrants’ role in the economy has intensified. To some people, they represent a black-market work force that is lowering the wages of legal immigrants and native-born Americans. To others, they are an essential part of several big industries. What’s the truth?

    Getting the whole truth is not easy, because illegal immigrants are not always easy to find, interview or otherwise include in government or private surveys. But some broad facts seem to be emerging, and they may shatter some preconceived notions: illegal immigrants do not just pick fruit, they do not just work off the books, they rarely earn less than the minimum wage and they may even be raising employment without harming incomes.

    For example, there are plenty of illegal immigrants who are not working on farms along the West Coast, gardening or providing child care, according to figures from the Pew Hispanic Center, a research group in Washington. About 20 percent of illegal immigrants work in construction, 17 percent in leisure and hospitality industries, 14 percent in manufacturing and 11 percent in wholesale and retail trade.

    In addition, illegal immigrants represent a substantial share of overall employment in quite a few industries, some of which require extensive skills and training. They may make up at least 10 percent of the work force in construction, leisure and hospitality, and in agriculture and related industries, according to figures calculated by the Pew Hispanic Center. But in specific occupations like cooking, painting, washing cars, packaging by hand and installation of carpets and floors, they may make up 20 percent or more.

    Those industries badly need immigrant labor, far in excess of government quotas for legal immigrants. “We need a million-plus workers added to our work force over the next five or six years, and that is associated with people leaving the work force and obviously the forecasted growth in construction,” said Wayne A. Crew, executive director of the Construction Industry Institute, an industry-sponsored research group at the University of Texas at Austin. “The numbers I’ve seen also indicate that about 60 percent or so of the new workers coming into the industry are Hispanic or Latino. So you can start to understand if you can expect that 600,000 of the new workers you’re going to need are in fact coming from somewhere else, then if they don’t come, it puts a bit of a stretch on your labor force.”

    A shortage of immigrant labor picking fruit on farms in the West has indeed made the news recently, but it disguises a much larger issue. Illegal immigrants also help big agribusinesses to keep prices low by working in processing and packaging, said Katherine A. Ozer, executive director of the National Family Farm Coalition, a lobbying group in Washington. Though family farms may depend on them to a lesser extent, she said, dairies and other operations do need immigrant labor. Without them, she said, the structure of the industry would have to change.

    In many cases, the jobs held by illegal immigrants are far from the minimum- or subminimum-wage stereotype, as well. Though the work itself is often unpleasant, the pay rates are commonly in the range of $10 to $20 an hour, said Jeffrey S. Passel, a senior research associate at the Pew center.

    “There are some indications that the majority of these workers, maybe 55 to 65 percent, are not in the underground economy,” Mr. Passel said. “They’re getting paid the same wage rates as everybody else is in those companies. It’s written down, and if they work there long enough, they’ll get health insurance and everything else.”

    The obvious question is how these immigrants’ presence is affecting the overall labor market, especially in these midlevel occupations.

    Using Mr. Passel’s figures, it seems likely that there are about eight million illegal immigrants with jobs right now. That is quite a bit more than the roughly 6.5 million unemployed people counted by the Census Bureau (some of whom might actually be illegal immigrants). Even if all illegal immigrants were deported overnight — the current bill would instead offer them a path to legal status — the rest of the work force might not be able to fill their jobs.

    Indeed, the presence of illegal immigrants may actually be increasing overall employment, and at little cost to wages, suggested Robert J. LaLonde, a professor of public policy at the University of Chicago. He said that these immigrants increase the overall supply of labor. If demand remains the same, their presence raises the number of jobs in the economy but lowers wages for everyone. But Professor LaLonde said that demand for labor is likely to increase, too, as investment money follows immigrant workers into the country.

    “The evidence of the effect they have on labor markets in terms of depressing the wages of native-born Americans is quite unclear,” he said. “Capital is a much more mobile factor than labor is, so if labor’s moving in, you better believe that capital’s not too far behind.”

    Professor LaLonde added that the presence of illegal immigrants in some service jobs makes it easier for Americans to participate in the labor force. The immigrants act as complements to higher-wage workers, who can then participate in greater numbers and become more productive. For instance, he said, “it’s easier for women to work because you can hire more baby-sitters.”

    Still, if illegal immigrants are often working side by side with native-born Americans and legal immigrants, it is worth asking whether they are reducing opportunities for others. Professor LaLonde dismissed that as unlikely, because in many cases an illegal immigrant may offer a combination of skills and cost that other workers simply cannot match.

    Potential American competitors “would like these jobs, but they don’t want to work at the lower price,” Professor LaLonde said. “Mexican day labor doesn’t get paid $5 an hour; they’re getting paid $8 or $9 an hour. But if you’re going to try to beat them at their own game, given that you’re not as qualified as they are, you’re going to have to undercut their price.”

    IF illegal immigrants weren’t present at all, Professor LaLonde conceded, others might have more incentive to train for those occupations. “But over all, the U.S. would be poorer,” he said. That is something for members of Congress to think about as they amend the new bill.

    Moreover, existing training programs have not necessarily resulted in a big influx of native-born Americans into immigrant-heavy industries.

    “The construction industry, at least, is viewed as an unattractive industry,” Mr. Crew said. “Other industries are competing for those same people, so the wages in those industries are rising at the same time. It’s a competition for people.”
     
  11. ZX10kawi

    ZX10kawi New Member Past Donor

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    Illegal immigration has gotten so bad in this country that before the recession some illegals would speak openly about being here illegally and also speak about who else was here illegally. They did this because they knew nothing would happen to them.
     
  12. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is you or others do not know who is legal and illegal. We don't know therefore we should not assume.

    Yes, illegal immigration in the USA is an issue. However, what is the exact problem that needs to be resolved?

    If you and others believe they are taking American jobs and driving down wages, if you could possibly remove all the illegals from the USA, all those jobs will be immediately filled by legal immigrants or unskilled and uneducated Americans and the wages will remain at minimum wage to $10-$12/hour.

    What is the real problem you are trying to solve??
     
  13. ZX10kawi

    ZX10kawi New Member Past Donor

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    I've worked at a manufacturing facility where a large group of illegals got fired. I'm not assuming anything, they openly talked about being here illegally and they were eventually fired for having bad ss numbers.
     
  14. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This is great...but your sample size cannot justify how many of us immediately assume a Latino is an illegal...we simply do not know.

    If you and others believe they are taking American jobs and driving down wages, if you could possibly remove all the illegals from the USA, all those jobs will be immediately filled by legal immigrants or unskilled and uneducated Americans and the wages will remain at minimum wage to $10-$12/hour.

    What is the real problem you are trying to solve??


    Please answer the above question?
     
  15. ZX10kawi

    ZX10kawi New Member Past Donor

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    That was one of many instances where I haves seen illegals doing a job an american would do.I have many more instances for which I am indeed assuming. I live in Illinois where we have an abundance of illegals, living in a area like this you learn to spot them. You can say "you don't know" all you want to it doesn't change the fact that there are 10- 20 million illegals in this country. All of which are working in jobs americans should have. If we need workers we have the LEGAL immigration system to get more workers into the country. We cannot continue to allow people to come into this country illegally.
     
  16. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    In bold above...this is such xenophobic BS!

    If only people like yourself would simply manage your own life instead of others this world would be a lot better off!

    I'm curious...do you debate and personally go after other criminals, like robbers and rapists and murderers? I'm sure you can easily 'spot them'.

    Or is it easier to assume all brown-skinned people are illegals then hide behind your user name and computer screen demanding outlandish actions?

    My advice to you; Get a life...
     
  17. Whale

    Whale Banned

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    Anyone who claims to not be able to understand that an adult who doesn't speak fluent English is not an American is only lying to one person himself.

    Any anyone who claims not to know that 90%+ of those people (adults who don't can't speak fluent English) are here illegally is again lying only to himself and is convincing no one else with BS he spews.

    Anyone who chooses to display the avatar you have chosen has everyone questioning what exactly it is you are 'on fire' for.
     
  18. ZX10kawi

    ZX10kawi New Member Past Donor

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    I don't assume all hispanics are illegals, nor do I suspect all hispanics of being here illegally. This is my country not the illegals, them being here affects my life. I have every right to take an interest in them. I refuse to turn a blind eye.
     
  19. sablegsd

    sablegsd Banned

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    If you and others believe they are taking American jobs and driving down wages, if you could possibly remove all the illegals from the USA, all those jobs will be immediately filled by legal immigrants or unskilled and uneducated Americans and the wages will remain at minimum wage to $10-$12/hour.

    Do you have any idea how many American citizens would be happy to take that $10 an hour job? My son for one. WTH is wrong with kicking out illegal alien invaders and letting unskilled American citizens have those jobs instead?
     
  20. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    What do you think about this:

    Of the 111.6 million households in the United States, each with an average 2.61 family members, 4.8 percent were "linguistically isolated," meaning everyone aged 14 or older in the households had difficulty speaking English, a report issued by the Census Bureau was quoted by AFP as saying.

    In California, the most populous state, the ratio of linguistically isolated households rose to one in 10.

    Spanish was spoken in 27.6 percent of linguistically isolated households, followed by Asian languages at 27.4 percent and languages besides Spanish from the Indo-European family, at 16.5 percent.

    Around 44 million Hispanics live in the United States, representing around 15 percent of the US population of nearly 303 million.

    The data also showed that one in five US citizens over the age of five speak a language other than English at home, although the majority of them (60 percent) spoke English very well.
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Knock yourself out...
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Because I know first-hand there are no other workers available for certain types of jobs. Maybe in other areas but not in my area...so what do I do when there are no workers?

    I'm curious if the illegal is earning $10/hour doing whatever job, why can't your son compete for the identical job and wage?
     
  23. Whale

    Whale Banned

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    NO

    The question to ask is why should his son or any other American be forced to subsidize your cheap illegal workforce.

    This is a free market economy that should not be involved in paying for your illegal foreign labor.

    YOU and YOU alone should be paying all of the associated expenses such as the welfare, free education, free medical. their anchor babies etc etc.

    The truth is that you would go broke if you paid for their subsidies.
    That is the only reason this ILLEGAL labor you use is cheap.
    YOU are nothing more than a lawbreaker and a parasite.

    YOU are collecting corporate welfare from taxpayers who never agreed to pay it and have had enough of this racket.


    Pay for your own labor you parasite.

    You're 'on fire' for what you depict in your avatar, you're an old &&& sucking off the taxpayer.
     
  24. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    This is just a bunch of righteous ignorance!

    If only you could spend a few minutes in reality, to be in the position to require unskilled day labor, to understand there are NO OTHER WORKERS AVAILABLE, to understand most are not underpaid in our case paying $10-$15/hour, to understand that we don't ask their status because we have no way to check their status.

    You remain ignorant because your mind is closed shut with your personal bias and xenophobia. I tell you about reality and you simply dismiss reality. This is why you remain ignorant because you are incapable of learning. Your ignorance and righteousness has become boring. Don't bother responding to my posts...
     
  25. Whale

    Whale Banned

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    Don't assume to tell me what to response to you parasite.

    You are breaking the law and all this rationalizing is convincing no one.
    You're breaking the law to save a few bucks.
    You're a parasite.

    You are part of what is collapsing this country's economy.
     
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