Rational argument in support of suspending the ownership of firearms by suicidal individuals

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Xenamnes, Oct 18, 2018.

  1. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Declining to answer what?
     
  2. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Do you think love of family should take precedence over religious dogma or vice versa?
     
  3. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I would prefer love of family. That's why I take the position that religion for some is a substitute for love but not the real thing. I do think though that properly approached religion can enhance love of family.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
    Bowerbird likes this.
  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Depression does not aiputomatically lead to suicide. There are assessment tools specific for suicide

    https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/menta...ublications/framework-suicide-risk-assess.pdf
    https://www2.health.vic.gov.au/ment...ental-health-services/suicide-risk-assessment

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2850.2003.00721.x

    Sorry my google defaults to Australian resources first :)

    These are based on the very real problem that we cannot House everyone who is depressed within a hospital environment and many have to be discharged into the community.

    Best thing to do is have family and friends help. If you have the ability to reduce risks like guns in the house then get them out of the house. It does not affect the probabilities much but stats say it does reduce the risk to a degree.

    Biggest thing is get that person to talk to others
     
  5. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My preference too.

    Qualified agreed, since it depends upon what "properly approached" really means. :)
     
  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Some consider suicide to be the ultimate selfish act. And thinking of loved ones can help turn around suicidal thoughts
     
    dave8383 likes this.
  7. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Some do, but they are wrong.

    Possibly. It depends.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  8. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Let's see.

    I would say that religion can focus the mind. If you use it as a tool to focus on love, compassion, selflessness, etc., you've approached it properly IMO. But that's me, I don't want to start preaching here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
    Bowerbird likes this.
  9. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Silly silly silly sorry :(

    What has happened here is that crimes have a bloody hard time getting a hold of a gun unless they are part of a criminal network. And we have taken down more than a few of them simply by tracing who is importing gun parts.

    Some of the guns here used in crimes are decades old - think on that - the police will nearly always be better armed than the criminal. But mostly because the crims know that it is unlikely that they will need a gun they rarely carry one when committing burglary. So you are more likely to have someone unarmed break in. In which case you get the opportunity to apply a decent arse kicking before the cops arrive
     
  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes but sometimes you also need a focus for your life. I have been reading about the impact of the Invictus games on ex service people with PTSD and depresion and the difference it has made to so many lives.
     
  11. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed and an important distinction: Religion is a tool towards greater enlightenment. It's not an end all to itself.
     
  12. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Dude, you just admitted that disarming innocent citizens means the only people who have guns are criminals...presumably not just the police and military.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  13. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm all for those games. I wish they had had something like that when I got out. Good for Prince Harry.
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I agree

    This was guy, who while on tour in Afghanistan had the nickname of "Bullet magnet". :D
     
  15. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    4,995
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I watched a brief TV show about/with Prince Harry. Some of it was about his learning to fly a helicopter. You could see it was a way for him to focus and get away from the burdens of his birthright. I heard Harrison Ford say that when he's flying he's just a pilot and no longer a movie star.

    Focusing the mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
    Bowerbird and Max Rockatansky like this.
  16. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    23,895
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Which brings the discussion to a specific issue as to why the temporary suspension of firearms ownership cannot be supported in a rational manner. To ensure that such an approach actually works, the individual in question would need to be subject to constant observation and monitoring. If left to their own devices and only observed occasionally, there is a significant window of opportunity for them to formulate an alternative if they truly wish to end their own existence. If they come to resent the notion of being checked on like an infant, it may simply deepen their resolve to go through with the act, rather than hesitating as they theoretically might under other circumstances.

    Is there any sense to the proposal if there is not a support system in place? Or is it merely to give hope the concerned individuals into believing something can be done for those they are concerned about?
     
  17. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    23,895
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can one ending their own existence be regarded as a selfish act if their continued existence is a source of discomfort and suffering for the family members who must worry about the well being of the individual in question? If they follow through and end their own existence, would such not allow the rest of their family members to eventually move on with their own lives?
     
  18. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    23,895
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What about the firearm manufacturing plants that have been discovered operating within the nation of Australia? Are they assembling the parts that are imported, or are they fabricating parts locally?

    https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/gun-runners-promo/8518600

    That particular matter aside, and without intending to get off the current topic pertaining to suicide, what exactly counts as being "part of a criminal network" with regard to this subject? What level of interactions is necessary to qualify as being part of a criminal network? Do those delivering packages for illegal purposes qualify, and as a result have access to firearms?

    While such may conjure images of criminal individuals having to make do with double action revolvers and such, one needs to remember that the AR-15 has turned fifty four years old this year. In the united states, this qualifies the original production batch for curio and relic status. The M1 Carbine rifle which predates the AR-15 is seventy six years old. The basic design of operation is still being used in current production firearms today, with very few changes overall.

    Such suggests that a firearm being decades old does not mean it is not modern enough to be considered a threat.

    What about melee implements such as baseball and/or cricket bats, crowbars, and machetes? Are such not used in criminal acts when firearms are not as readily available, or overall are not preferred due to the noise that would result from their use?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  19. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Not all criminals are part of a network. And the networks that operate - how interested are they in nicking your 10 year old TV?
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-26/source-of-illicit-guns-in-australia/6483762

    Bottom line

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    91,877
    Likes Received:
    73,628
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Caught and jailed. We know there are illegal guns and we will never get rid of all the illegal guns but SOMETHING is causing the huge disparity between our firearm mortality and yours. A large proportion of your firearm mortality are urban youths. It is THIS group that does not have gun access thank goodness!!
     
  21. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    23,895
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    First and foremost, no personal details relating to myself have ever been presented for consideration in any discussion, as they are not relevant to the topic. There is no relevancy between myself and any topic of discussion.

    That particular matter aside, for all of the firearm-related restrictions in place in the united states, for all of the offenders who could easily be put away for decades, if not the duration of their natural lives, there is simply very little in the way of actual enforcement of any of these restrictions, especially against one who already has an existing criminal record. For whatever reason or reasons serve as the motivating factor for prosecutors, charges being filed are exceedingly rare. Cases going to trial are ever rarer, and successful convictions rarer still.

    In the united states, it is a felony offense for a prohibited person to acquire, or to attempt to acquire, a firearm through whatever means. Despite this, every single year, a significant number of prohibited individuals attempt to purchase firearms from a federally licensed firearms dealer, only to be stopped by the background check showing that they are prohibited, after submitting identifying information on the background check forms. These forms are evidence of a criminal offense, but even with the name, address, and social security number to go on, the ATF does not pursue charges against them except under exceptionally rare circumstances.

    Even if the firearm-related restrictions of the nation of Australia were implemented in the united states, such would ultimately do nothing beneficial unless the united states simultaneously implemented and adopted the same rigorous belief in enforcement of such. The society of the united states would first have to get serious about cracking down on criminal misbehavior, rather than simply turning a blind eye to such behavior, and acting as if such is no big deal.

    The nation of Australia takes the rule of law quite seriously. The united states does not even comprehend what the rule of law actually means.
     
  22. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Focusing the mind, IMO, is the main reason we're here. What does a Grizzly bear do except focus on eathing. Perfection of a predator, but what other service ? The additional service of human beings is a plus to adcavcing a religion.
     
  23. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
  24. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    9,774
    Likes Received:
    4,103
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That discrepancy has existed for a century or more. Prior to 1996 the ratio of homicide rate of US to Australia was about 4:1. It's still about 4:1 after the 199 NFA and confiscation. Why didn't that change?
     
    Max Rockatansky likes this.
  25. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    23,895
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Those participating in this discussion are quickly moving too far off of the intended topic. And while what is being discussed is worth discussing, it is not here.
     

Share This Page