Rights

In another thread @rahl said this:

I followed up with @rahl in that thread, but one of the moderators, @Lesh, told me to start another thread to explore the subject.

So here's the question: Was it just for the Spartans to enslave the Helots? I know that it was legal, but was it just?

 

Interesting position. So if Adam and Bob both found themselves on a deserted island, would it be just for Adam to murder Bob?

I didn't ask if it was legal, so you have no need to understand their laws. I asked if it was just.

 

I'm not a Mod and it was a suggestion in response to pages of thread drift.

Thanks

 

You're not a mod?! Then why did I listen to you?

 

Probably because you realized you were acting in a manner the Mods would object to...

 

I doubt the mods would object to a discussion of rights in a thread on whether healthcare is a right. That kind of seems the point.

 

Something being “just” isn’t really the same as people having the “right” to do it. The former is entirely a moral judgement while the latter has more practical applications. I think the key question here is exactly what do you mean by “rights” in this context? Can it be defined outside the context of any conscious social structure?

 

This would be a start:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ——

 

It would seem that rights and something being just are very closely related. I would say that people have a right to being treated justly. Would you disagree?

 

Here is a better question. Is eating meat just? We claim they are not sentient beings but we don't know that. It is exactly the argument used by slaveholders. Blacks were not equal to humans so they could be slaves. Maybe we just don't know that animals are equal to humans. Is eating meat just?

 

Eating meat causes no one to be treated unjustly, so I'd say it's just.

 

Sure

And I stated why I couldn't provide an answer

 

Really? Adam would be treating Bob justly by murdering him? That's you position?

 

It's a deserted island, with no rule of law or rights.

 

How about the animal? Can you prove that it should not be treated as a person? You are making the slaveholder argument

 

Yes, it's a deserted island. And your position is that it would be just for Adam to murder Bob?

 

Are you asserting that cows are people?

 

There are no laws, or established rights on the island. If bob and Adam agreed they can't kill each other, that would be different.

 

I am asserting they could be. Many people at one time would have asked this question

Are you asserting that blacks are people?

You are making the slaveholder argument

 

So your position is really that it would be just for Adam to murder Bob. I just want to make sure I'm understanding your notion of justice.

 

My position was stated clearly in the post you quoted.

 

Feel free to prove that cows are people.

No, I'm not making the slaveholder argument.

 

I just find it shocking that you would consider it just for Adam to murder Bob. It sounds sort of sociopathic, if you ask me.

 

In 2017 the common scientific opinion of the day is that cows are not people. In 1700 the common scientific opinion of the day was that blacks are not people.

You are making the slaveholder argument

 

I didn't say that.

You have a very bad habit of making things up.