Rise of the police state - checkpoints and passports

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by kazenatsu, Oct 20, 2018.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    Before 2007 - when new laws began kicking in - Americans could usually travel to and from Canada, Mexico, and other nearby countries, without a passport.

    Indeed, in 1994 only 10% of Americans even had passports. Today, because of tightening laws and more stringent requirements, a little over 40% of Americans do.

    When one steps back and looks at this change over time, this seems a little eerily similar to police states (of the type that existed in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union).
    While it may be increasingly difficult for people today to understand, there used to be a time when requiring documentation was viewed with some suspicion and concerns about civil liberties issues.

    As countries have grown more diverse, the societies have also become less altruistic and less trusting. Problems have started arising that did not used to be there, and as a result, the iron hand of government has come down more. Countries are also dealing with a flood of immigration, to an extent that was much less of an issue 60 years ago. Now there is a trend towards requiring documentation, because it's much harder to know who's a citizen and who is not these days.

    I wonder, has anyone stepped back and noticed this? The trend that has been happening over the span of a generation? Are people just going to take this all for granted?
    If everything commonplace today had suddenly happened in the 1950s, people would have been alarmed. These types of things were viewed as war-time emergency powers.

    Let me tell you a story. The last time I crossed the U.S. Canadian border (just a few years ago) we had left the U.S. side, went only about 40 meters to the Canadian border station (to deal with some stuff for a few hours) and then turned around and made a U-turn back into the U.S. We did not even go past the Canadian border station to really enter Canada. Well, on the way back to enter the U.S., me and my brother were both pulled out of the car, handcuffed, and detained for several hours. They could not tell us why they had "detained" us, only that our names were on some special list, and they could offer no guarantees that this would not all happen again.

    It has no become routine for border agents to ask passengers to step out of their car while the car is searched without the passengers being allowed to be present to watch it.
    This is at the U.S.-Canadian border. We're not even talking about the U.S.-Mexican border.

    Is none of this a little eerie to people? Yes, the world may have changed since the 1960s, but at what cost to people, to civil liberties?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
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  2. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the issue I got a Passport Card as my primary form of identification since I don't drive and well it doesn't have my address or state of residence of zip code on it and is valid for proof of identity in all but one US State on its own and even better I don't need to update the address information on my card if I move for example. So its fine ID. But I will show that if asked and if crossing the US border or going to one of the nations its good for I expect to have to show and have it scanned. Police once asked for ID and I showed it, they asked for a REAL ID and said its a proper ID and if they care to verify any information I give them regarding my address they can just contact the State Department.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    And now passports are becoming required to even get on planes for domestic flights (including when the destination is within the same state).
    Where do we draw the line? What if they started requiring passports to get on buses and trains?
    (All that information presumably automatically being entered into a computer database)

    When it comes to the point that people can't even legally travel without being registered somehow.

    Automated computer recognition technology can now even be used to track the movement of cars by their license plate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
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  4. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    This has been going on since time immemorial in ghettos with cops stopping and searching innocent people all the time. I have said for years that this is political coercion on the part of the government. But right wingers only object when it is the IRS that does it.

    Where were the right wingers then???
     
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  5. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Oh please a Passport isn't required for domestic flights if you have a State ID meeting the Real ID Federal Guidelines since the Passport Card or Passport Book is also automatically a Real ID meeting document everyone should have a proper state issued ID meeting the requirements by now its not that hard for most people who are citizens. You do have a right to travel the government and private transportation companies can demand proper identification but no one can prevent you riding a bicycle say from Tampa to Orlando but if you go on Amtrak and Greyhound they require proper identification and that is proper government identification for ease.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member

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    There's a big fundamental difference between a private company demanding identification and the government demanding it.

    I've read there have been serious proposals floated in several states to require license plates even for bicycles (but fortunately so far none of these proposals have seemed to go very far).

    Did you know the federal government has made it a felony to travel across state lines with a gun if that person has charges filed against them by a prosecutor? That's before the person has even been arrested or convicted. And you could still be charged with the felony and have all your rights permanently taken away even if you were completely innocent of the original felony you were being charged with. So much for the right to travel with the Second Amendment.

    Yes, originally the federal government had planned to require a passport for all domestic flights, but then that triggered some outrage from some Congressmen on civil liberties issues, and the role of the states. This was an issue that most Americans did not understand at the time. So they modified the plan with a compromise that individual states would be the ones responsible for issuing the IDs, and the federal government would have oversight over it.
    Which I feel was a very reasonable compromise (although it does still have a few inherent issues).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
  7. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Where is the right wing objection to unconstitutional actions of the police in the police state?
     
  8. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    They endorse such measures.
     
  9. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of the latter issue I was one who formally made a hissy fit since under their terms an State ID with the Real ID requirements is more than sufficient for domestic flights since it meets the same Federal Standard for a Passport Book and/or Card except verifying ones place of birth and parentage. So is superior in that to prove ones citizenship and identity as a citizen.

    However on the gun charge issue isn't hard don't cross state lines with a gun, there, no risk of losing the right to having a gun. One should know the laws when one is charged with a crime and learn not to have a gun when traveling if allowed to most states for a felony charge will have judges banning leaving the state without permission so such a person would likely be in legal trouble. The packing a gun would make it worse.

    I do point out we are in a big and vulnerable nation ID to travel isn't a bad idea and you seem to think so and I'm not sure why. I mean if a random officer tried to card me I would refuse but if I was someplace acting odd it would be reasonable to ask and then I would show it.
     
  10. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Passports aren't required for Domestic flights if you have a REAL ID driver's license.
     
  11. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    This tendency toward authoritarianism that you point out has likely existed for a long time, but in this country it was great accelerated by 911.

    Most Americans are oblivious to the actions you cite. Good job.
     

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