Romans 9:9-13 Proves Christainity is Evil

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Aphotic, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Epistle to Philemon has become an important text in regard to slavery; it was used by pro-slavery advocates as well as by abolitionists.[95][96] In the epistle, Paul writes that he is returning Onesimus, a fugitive slave, back to his master, Philemon; however, Paul also entreats Philemon to regard Onesimus, who he says he views as a son, not as a slave but as a beloved brother in Christ. Philemon is requested to treat Onesimus as he would treat Paul.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery
     
  2. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    double post
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  3. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Are you calling the Southern Baptists liars? They started their demonination because they claimed that the New Testament gave them the right to own slaves. They fought a war over it.
     
  4. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for the "double-post"
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  5. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the post by maat, isn't God said to be the one who gave humans the ability to make a choice? If He truly cared, wouldn't He instead not grant His creations the ability to choose something with negative consequences?
    In addition, God's disobedient creations never chose to exist trapped in His world to begin with. They exist there due to unfortunate circumstance.
    God, at least to my knowledge, I have never read the entire Bible, does not give humans a choice for participating in His plan. Surely you have to at least see the logic as to why those who do not care to follow God are upset. Imagine if you were trapped by a deity who thought nothing like yourself. Who's views you did not agree with. It is reasonable for one to be angry at their limited choices. As is the case with human dictatorships, it is easy to feel contented when authority is in your favor.

    Anyway, responding to your statements for my own post, Christians may believe that God and Satan have an active presence on Earth, though why would God entrust the only proof of His laws and existence to the Bible, rather than existing in a constant, easily observable form on Earth, interacting with humans directly?

    Also, I am aware the majority of Christians are very happy. The same cannot be said of most non-religious individuals, myself included. I'm sorry if this is confusing, but I am trying to understand why God would allow for humans to even have earthly desires in the first place. Regarding happiness, I suppose it would depend on the type of person. To me for example, there is little a deity from any of the world's religions can provide for happiness that I can't imagine for myself. I am only limited by the nature of my surrounding reality. This might sound strange, though as I've stated on threads before, I am happiest when I am in control. Be it of my physical surroundings, situations or even other people. Therefore Christianity presents a rather unfulfilling reward. My ideal afterlife would be something akin to a "lucid dream". I believe the case with many others is similar as well. For many, earthly desires are satisfactory. As for laws that interfere, I would name God's laws on sexuality for one. As well as God's views on what is moral may not necessarily be the same as someone else's viewpoint. There are many other laws to think of. Perhaps if you listed some, I could explain my own thoughts better. Free will seems more like an inconvenience if having a different perspective leads to eternal suffering.
    The Christian God's goal may not be to grant happiness in terms of earthly desires, but why allow the punishment of those with a different perspective? A perspective formed from the free will God granted them?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  6. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    And they were wrong. And the Crusaders were wrong. And the Inquisition was wrong. Like I keep telling you, Christianity is not a popularity contest, because people misrepresented what the Bible says (just like people in this forum have been doing) does not make it right.
     
  7. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Having free will means having the ability to make a choice, right or wrong, and dealing with the consequences.


    People are not trapped, they have a choice, they can choose whatever religion they think is proper. If a person rejects Christianity, then that person does not believe in the consequences within Christianity, and he can live his life as he sees fit without any concern over eternal damnation or hell or heaven. That person is not constrained by the Christian Gods rules. But if they are wrong, then after they die they will face the consequences - but they do not believe they are wrong so in this life it does not bother them.

    A person who examines Christianity and decides it is the Truth and then accepts the constraints of Christianity is doing so voluntarily (and if you decide its the Truth, then the obvious decision is to follow the Truth). While that person might have to sacrifice some earthly pleasures, it is understood it is for a greater goal. The attitude is that life is short, eternity is forever, and any discomfort today brings great rewards later.

    Look at Jesus - the blind gained their sight, the lame walked, the dead were raised, and Jesus himself was crucified and resurrected. Many people saw the clearly observable evidence and did not believe. Jesus even commented on that fact.

    Look at Gods work through Moses - the 10 plagues on Egypt, the parting of the sea, striking a rock to provide water while the Jews were in the desert, providing manna for them eat, providing quail when they got sick of manna and complained, and more. And through all this the pillar of fire was leading them from Egypt throughout their wanderings and beyond, a visible reminder of God, yet the Jews constantly went astray.

    If God appeared in the sky and did wondrous miracles, many people would refuse to believe it was God.



    I don't have an answer to all those questions. To some extent, the fact that humanity exists in this condition means there is a reason even if I do not understand the reason. Questioning why humanity exists in this condition is futile. My personal decision is that Christianity is the Truth for various reasons, and based on that I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt regarding issues that cannot be explained (such as those brought up by some of your questions). Through your own process, you have come to a different conclusion.
     
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  8. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

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    Though the people are trapped, in God's universe. Trapped in a place where they have to make a choice. Where they gave no consent as to whether they wanted to be born or not. They did not ask to be there. It may not bother them in this life, though if they are wrong, as you believe, it seems like a horrifying prospect for them to face the consequences due to an ability God cursed them with. Would they not be better off if they had no free will?

    It is true, many people in the Bible doubted Jesus. And you are correct as well, even the Jews who followed Moses doubted God. Though I am surprised that God would not realize that previous methods have clearly not worked very well for many. I think for myself, the problem truly comes down to the fact that God cannot be directly interacted with, or if He could, would not provide satisfactory answers for the human mind to comprehend.
    And yes, I have come to my own conclusion. Unfortunately it is only horror at the possibility in the existence of the Christian God. Ways of governing I find truly unconscionable. Though that is only my opinion. Thank you for your input Battle 3. I look forward to speaking again if you wish.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  9. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many of us who do not believe in your flavor of God is because we have no evidence it exist. Biblical writings are no different than the Koran or the Lord of the Rings.

    Additionally, your Bible makes supernatural claims that defy natural laws we can test and observe. The Bible is riddled with errors and contradictions. It's whole premise is, in no way, consistent with an all knowing and loving creator.

    Its consequences are nonsensical and immoral. How rational people can believe it to be real is disturbing.
     
  10. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You might as well complain that you don't have a say in the color of the sky. You are here, you have free will and choices to make, there is nothing you can do about it.

    "Though I am surprised that God would not realize that previous methods have clearly not worked very well for many."
    It is not a popularity contest, it is a test with clear criteria for passing and failing. If you want everyone to pass, then don't give a test. Would you apply the same attitude to other things - the college boards, job hiring criteria, disability thresholds, military standards, not enough people pass so just lower the standards?

    "God cannot be directly interacted with, or if He could, would not provide satisfactory answers for the human mind to comprehend"
    You mean He does not provide satisfactory answers for everyone to comprehend. He clearly provides enough for many people to comprehend as there are many Christians.

    As I wrote in my previous post, there are people who would not believe even if God appeared in front of them and performed miracles. If God made lightning bolts come down these people would say God was really an alien with superior technology, if God turned them into a frog and then back into a human they would say God was a person(or alien) with telepathic illusionist powers. No matter what God did, there are some people who will refuse to believe.

    "Unfortunately it is only horror at the possibility in the existence of the Christian God. Ways of governing I find truly unconscionable"
    Christian life can be summarized by the "golden rule". Is it that horrible?
     
  11. ESTT

    ESTT Well-Known Member

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    Sadly this may be true. It seems so wrong though, being unconsenting hostages to a deity. I suppose a difference would be that the sky is not an intelligent, all powerful, all knowing being with the power to create. With full knowledge of the future actions of His creations due to a defect given to them by Him.

    I know that it is not a popularity contest at all. I think the difference from those other types of tests you mentioned is that failing certain people simply exists due to the reality of the world we find ourselves in. If, for example, the military had the power to control reality and make all applicants pass, they likely would. Or the power to create the world, they simply could prevent the existence of the enemy altogether and thus have a world free of war.

    Also, yes you are correct. Though if for whatever reason God does not provide answers for everyone to comprehend, there would have to be some form of favoritism.

    If God displayed His power, and someone still did not believe, why is it that God condemns them for simply having doubt. Doubt formed from free will given to them by God? Though if God truly is omnipotent, there must be something He knows that could absolutely convince a person with doubt.

    As for the Golden rule, I don't find it horrible. Which is why I feel that it would be wrong of someone to force a lifeform into existence with the ability to disobey, then allow the lifeform to be punished forever due to their choice of disobedience which the one who created them allowed them to have in the first place. Especially if the creator already knew ahead of time what choices they will make. Also to not provide the lifeform with a type of retroactive option to not be forced to exist seems wrong as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017

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